RE: GETTING PAID  
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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/8/2007 11:49:08 AM   
iflyj3



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Why not check with the Airshow boss and see what kind of insurance they have for the airshow and have them insure you under their policy?

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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/8/2007 1:02:51 PM   
Tired Old Man


 

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There's not an insurance policy or binder issued that will cover anything if existing law was being broken when the loss was incurred. I guarantee that if there's an accident with serious personal injury involved the insurance companies will be looking for that loophole to void their liability. They may pay, but they will also recover their costs and expenses after the fact from those responsible for the injury.

Better to be paid for being a manufacturers rep and simply demonstrating the product line. That way the flying is incidental to the job requirements.

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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/8/2007 1:15:58 PM   
STLPilot


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pat Roy

There's not an insurance policy or binder issued that will cover anything if existing law was being broken when the loss was incurred. I guarantee that if there's an accident with serious personal injury involved the insurance companies will be looking for that loophole to void their liability. They may pay, but they will also recover their costs and expenses after the fact from those responsible for the injury.

Better to be paid for being a manufacturers rep and simply demonstrating the product line. That way the flying is incidental to the job requirements.

Even if the insurance paid up, then comes the civil lawsuit on top of it. And if the person isn't flying under the safety net of a corporation, it's bye bye home like you said. If someone is injured the insurance will only cover, or might only cover injuries. But then comes pain and suffering and all that other fun stuff tied to tort law. Oh and just wait till they find out that he forgot to charge a battery (neglect). And the really crazy thing is that he came onto RCU and let everyone know his intentions. The last few pages of this thread a lawyer would really love. But, luckily he was smart enough to register as new user. But wonder if he was smart enough not to use a trackable email address to sign up.

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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/8/2007 2:25:20 PM   
jonkoppisch



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There is a couple of points brought up that are good. If everyone feels so strongly about accepting $ for flying at a airshow (I fly at them quite often but never get paid ) and it's a big no no, then what about paid flight instructors at your field and paid reps and paid demonstration teams (I'm sure there's some of them, people accepting $ to come to an event and fly) Some probably have their own insurance but...??? If you can't charge to fly then you can't charge to instruct.. Just as guilty..

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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/8/2007 2:48:40 PM   
STLPilot


 

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John I think you need to look at the actual rules in regards to that policy. First off it has to be done ONLY at an AMA club site. Coverage does not carry to a corn field or on a USAF base. AMA club sites have additional protection against an accident. A paid instructor can ONLY be paid by an AMA member. Which of course not only protects the pilot, student and the club, but also protects the AMA since they wrote the standards and approved by the insurance. So we know EVERYONE is insured in this case, it's no longer a case of "what if" and "who if". Everything is kept within the "family" of the organiztion.

This is a far cry from where and how the OP wants to perform. Wonder why a person who want's to perform commercial airshows is just now registering on RCU???? Gotta give him credit for that move. He figured out how to beat that system. Now he's pulling his hair out trying to figure out how to keep his house if he wants to run a small business.

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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/8/2007 3:05:35 PM   
jonkoppisch



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So ama only covers you at an ama field? If you can only be paid by another ama person.. What if the person running the airshow is a member with ama? Just thinking out loud

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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/8/2007 3:16:36 PM   
STLPilot


 

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You're missing the point, well from the eyes of the AMA's insurance underwriters, they are the ones that approve the rules the AMA submits to them for approval. Westchester is the one that stamps the approval not the AMA. Insurance companies write policies knowing worst case scenarios and limit of risk. Since the airshow is performed at an AMA club which has additional Westchester insurance for the site, they most likely can only be sued by themselves. Now of course there is risk that the person injured has a powerful insurance company which could sue the AMA, but like I said, they've reduced the risk of that happening.

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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/8/2007 3:21:24 PM   
JUGFLIER


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jonkoppisch

So ama only covers you at an ama field? If you can only be paid by another ama person.. What if the person running the airshow is a member with ama? Just thinking out loud



Jon,
I think you may be getting a few things mixed up here. When you join AMA, you recieve i think it is 1 million in liability protection that is SECONDARY, to any other insurance. That coverage is good anywhere you fly with this restriction..... You must follow the AMA sefety code.

An AMA charted club has another insurance policy that is good for 2 1/2 million that is given to cover the liability protection of the land owner. I think this policy costs the club $65.00. If the airshow were being held at a location other than an AMA charted club field, the only insurance that an rc pilot would have would be his SECONDARY policy he gets when he joins AMA. If he has an accident and personal injury occurs and during the investigation it is deemed the pilot was being paid for putting on demos, his SECONDARY insurance policy would not be applicable, thus leaving him without insurance. Unless the place where he was doing the demo had its own insurance to cover accidents.

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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/8/2007 3:24:58 PM   
jonkoppisch



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I understand.. Just kind of 'playing the devils advocate' thing.. I was just thinking that there's really no difference in the instructor, demo team getting paid and the guy going to the airshow, other than location...

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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/8/2007 3:32:41 PM   
STLPilot


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jonkoppisch

I understand.. Just kind of 'playing the devils advocate' thing.. I was just thinking that there's really no difference in the instructor, demo team getting paid and the guy going to the airshow, other than location...
Right, but the insurance company knows the difference, that's what they do 24/7 365.

But if you think about it the AMA did try in their best ability to at least provide something for "hire", so you can't rule that fact out. Somebody prolly asked the AMA to come up with a solution and they gave it their best shot. So the insurance companies assessed the risks and gave the AMA something they were looking for. But to ask the insurance company to provide for demos for hire, is not going to be an easy thing to do. You are talking about flying at loose sites which may or may not have adequte safety signs and most likely rather large crowds of people. You've increased risks by hundreds of percentage points and insurance companies just aren't .... stupid. Lots of people watching increases the risk and "for hire" changes the laws greatly in the eyes of the civil judicial system.

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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/8/2007 5:02:58 PM   
DadsToysBG



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I've been asked to fly my GS at other places such as a EAA event. I do it for pure fun. It's hard to put a dollar value on fun and it introduces at lot of people to the hobby that may never have given it much thought. What I got out of doing it was a free lunch, lots of fun and I got to meet a lot of great people. That was worth more then money to me. Dennis

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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/8/2007 5:07:38 PM   
jonkoppisch



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I agree!!! I enjoy going and shooting the bull!!! It's always fun when people see the models and can't believe how big they are.... then you fly them Their expressions are priceless I did get free jet fuel once at an airshow

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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/8/2007 5:33:52 PM   
Tired Old Man


 

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I have a hunch that if it ever got down to the short strokes, thoose providing instruction for hire, regardless of location or insurance coverage, could get hung by the ba!!s for flying for hire without a commercial flight certificate. Let's hope it never goes there.

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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/8/2007 7:12:33 PM   
Hossfly



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Pat, I think you are giving FAA more credit than they deserve. There is no way that FAA can require a Pilot's License to fly RC. I am sure there are those there, especially all those FAA examiners unable to get an airline job, that would be happy to have such power over the masses.
Fortunately there is no such power currently in effect.
If one wishes to be insured while performing some operation, then buy an umbrella policy that covers the activity. Insurance is available if one will pay the premium.

And as far as the AMA paid Instructor rules, here they are from the AMA's public use website.
quote:


1. As a benefit of membership, AMA’s insurance protection will extend to those members
who provide flight instruction for a fee on a casual basis.
2. This coverage does not extend to any commercial operation or business pursuit.
3. The coverage only applies when an AMA member is instructing another AMA member.
4. The coverage only applies when the instruction is being provided at a recognized model
flying facility or during an AMA chartered club's previously planned and advertised
"official" event.

ADDED: Notice >>"recognized model flying facility"<< which means that a Club is not necessarily required. Two AMA members at any Podunk flying field qualifies as long as no specific club objects.

5. Clubs reserve the right to either allow or disallow the use of their facilities to a paid flight
instructor while providing instruction for a fee.
6. Clubs reserve the right to charge a fee for the use of their facilities to a paid instructor
member when instructing for a fee. All agreements pertaining to these fees will be a
matter strictly between the club and instructor.
7. AMA will provide, on the AMA Website in the Members Only section, a searchable
database of all members who wish to be identified as flight instructors. This database will
include both volunteer instructors and those that charge a fee. Inclusion in this database
is on a voluntary basis. It is the instructor’s responsibility to insure that his or her name is
listed and that the information in that listing is accurate. The database will include the
instructor’s name, address, telephone number, email address, and club affiliation. There
will be an indictor next to the names of those instructors that charge a fee.
8. AMA assumes no responsibility and makes no assertions as to the competency of any
instructor listed in this database.


The insurance company recognizes such. My umbrella company recognizes it and even if they did not the AMA secondary comes into play. That applies only if I should instruct for pay.
The FAA can go play leap frog.
OH BTW, I do have FAA commercial privileges as that comes under my Airline Transport Pilot certificate.

Far too many mountains out of mole-hills being made here.


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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/9/2007 12:37:15 AM   
ira d


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

Ira-
oh, in the Commercial Operator definition,
I thought we were talking about the Aircraft def. In the definition of aicraft, it makes no qualifiers as to scale, or use. A while back this was argued bigtime about the FAA was suposedly powerless to do anything about folks flying RC because they were not aircraft.

Can a General Aviation Pilot accept $500 for flying at an airshow, without a Comercial Pilots Licence?


But this is academic. Just get the Hartford insurance & claim it is income... and claim a bunch more as expense to really help in the big picture.


Kid