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GETTING PAID - 12/5/2007 6:53:04 PM   
carden cap


 

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Why can we not get paid for flying demos at Full Scale Airshows if we are invited by the Airshow. Why is it that? I pay a yearly fee for an insurance that is supposed to protect me in case of an accident right. So if I pay for something why can't I use it like I want? Myself and another individual have flown at many Airshows but we have not been able to collect funds for fear of losing AMA priveledges if the AMA were to ever find out. Now I'm not talking about a ton of money, maybe a few hundred dollars for flying or something. They usually give us free smoke oil but we dont use smoke much because it can tear up the covering over time. The aerobatic pilots at the shows have an insurance company that protects them and they collect a TON of money for doing shows including several hundreds/thousands of dollars of fuel. We can't use their fuel so we are stuck coming out of pocket for things. The airshows have offerd to pay but we have declined. I want to know why the AMA wont let us earn money if we are skilled enough to perform. Now if I'm wrong I apologize and we can close this thread and shame on me for not collecting. But if I'm not I would like an answer.
       Post #: 1

RE: GETTING PAID - 12/5/2007 7:00:13 PM   
JUGFLIER


 

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Carden,
To me it's real simple. You go get you some insurance separate from AMA and use that insurance. According to STL Pilot, The Hartford will write policies on model aircraft.

(in reply to carden cap)
       Post #: 2

RE: GETTING PAID - 12/5/2007 7:20:32 PM   
KidEpoxy



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From: San Antonio, TX, USA
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The joys of insurance.

I used to pay a bunch of money for car insurance, but that dont cover you for comercial driving of your car like Pizza Delivery. I have to buy comercial car insurance, and this may be a shock to some readers, but the charge more for that. (yeah, I know, who woulda dreamed an insurance company likes to charge more for every little detail about you )

So AMA insures you for non-comercial activities,
and it doesnt matter if you actually end up only flying 3hr/week for proffit instead of the 20hr/week retirees can fly for fun, the comercial flying is not covered by AMA insurance.

You can still do it, just grab some The Hartford insurance.
Which will then make you wonder why you have to pay Muncie for Secondary Insurance when you may now have StateFarm Homeowners insurance, Hartford RC Flying insurance, and AMA RC secondary

_____________________________

Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

(in reply to carden cap)
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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/5/2007 7:23:23 PM   
DadsToysBG



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Another reason is the AMA is a non-profit group of flyers. If you fly for money your out side of the AMA guide lines. Even the company reps at fly-ins that are paid by the company to fly and demo their products must carry their own ins. That same rep that flys for fun is now covered by the AMA. Dennis

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Dads Toys. I fly what I sell
CD Vette City Big Bird

(in reply to JUGFLIER)
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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/5/2007 7:29:19 PM   
DocYates



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You should be able to tag an extra coverage to your home owners insurance to cover you. It is not expensive and you could rest better at night. Talk to your home insurance agent and ask him, I bet he can set you up with something.
My guess is that the AMA is not going to cover you for the same reason they will not cover guys who go out and fly R/C for commerical purposes (photography, etc). I think Dennis hit the nail on the head.
Tommy

_____________________________

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares, will plow for those who did not".

(in reply to DadsToysBG)
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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/5/2007 7:45:29 PM   
mr_matt



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quote:

ORIGINAL: DocYates
You should be able to tag an extra coverage to your home owners insurance to cover you. It is not expensive and you could rest better at night. Talk to your home insurance agent and ask him, I bet he can set you up with something.


you think that would fly with your homeowners insurance?


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Matt
JetCat rep

(in reply to DocYates)
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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/5/2007 7:52:09 PM   
DocYates



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Matt,
You are right..... I somehow doubt it, unless you get it in writing up front. My guess is that when they find out you are getting paid for it, they will defintely take a stronger look at it and run it thru their lawyers, but it is a place to start. Most companies will issue you an additional liability policy, but on seond thought they may frown on the getting "paid" part. Most guys doing these demos are not paid directly, or so I am told, so they probably are exempt from this issue. It does raise a very interesting premise however.
Tommy

_____________________________

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares, will plow for those who did not".

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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/5/2007 8:07:16 PM   
Rafael23cc



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I have flown at airshows at the request of the airshow coordinator. I have not gotten paid directly, but i have given the airshow coordinator my receipts for the hotel fares, car fuel, meals and glow fuel for the event and he has reinbursed me. So I get to fly for free for the entire weekend.

You should have no problems with that arrangement.

Rafael

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Keep your eyes on the sky but your feet on the ground!
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(in reply to DocYates)
       Post #: 8

RE: GETTING PAID - 12/5/2007 8:19:04 PM   
KidEpoxy



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Raf,
add up all that compensation for services perfomed,
and ask the IRS if they want to tax that as Income, or if they dont mind you getting hundreds (thousands/year?) without them getting a piece of your pie.

While you may balance out travel & 'per dium' as business operating expenses vs the compensation,
to keep the taxman off your back for all that compensation,
that would kinda make that activity business.... you know, comercial.

And running comercial net zero or in the red is not a problem for the IRS aspect, but it does put a clamp on your AMA Non-Comercial insurance. It is non-comercial, it is not non-profitable-comercial

Guys, rather than trying to find the best way to hide the income
& hope the ameture internet tax lawyers here dont get you audited,
lets just help the guy get the proper insurance.

_____________________________

Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

(in reply to Rafael23cc)
       Post #: 9

RE: GETTING PAID - 12/5/2007 8:42:58 PM   
carden cap


 

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Church's are Non Profit and they sure as heck make money. I believe that we should be able to get paid to fly at things like Airshows if we are asked to and are experienced enough to do that. Plus AMA is the "secondary" insurance. I'm sure 95% of us havent told anything to our homeowners insurance or renters insurance that we fly RC airplanes but if we destroy something homeowners or renters comes in first and then AMA comes in second. I dont see what the real difference is with it being an AMA flying site because whether it is airport equipment or a plane that is on the runway or out front. What makes airplane equipment or planes different from houses that could be on either side of an AMA flying field or behind or in front of it???

(in reply to KidEpoxy)
       Post #: 10

RE: GETTING PAID - 12/5/2007 8:48:02 PM   
DocYates



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Carden,
I don't think the issue is "where it is at", it is the fact that when you start getting paid (not reimbursed, but paid) for your activities, you are then a commercial venture, and the AMA insurance is not tht kind of a product.

Much like full scale pilots (not commerical rated). They cannot be "paid" to fly someone from one place to the next, but they can be reimbursed for the cost of doing so. In order to be able to charge for those services it requires an entirely different set of regulations.

I don''t really think that you can compare what you are doing with a "chruch", and though I see nothing wrong with your activities, they do represent a commercial venture if you get paid for them.
Tommy

_____________________________

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares, will plow for those who did not".

(in reply to carden cap)
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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/5/2007 8:48:42 PM   
STLPilot


 

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Jug's right, why don't you just get your own commercial insurance, afterall what your doing is a commercial entity. I bet it will cost you a lot less then you think, even as a for profit.

But do you know why insurance carriers must segregate commercial insurance from non-commercial for insurance policies? Do you think it's because they don't want to do it? No, it's so you wear a red flag over your head for the taxman. To qualify for commercial insurance you need to be setup as a business and typically provide a tax ID number. If you make income the gov't is going to want a piece of the action, no matter how small as long as you operation net's a profit. Thank the gov't, not the AMA for the reasoning.
The AMA has a list of commercial RC schools on their website. If I were you I would call a few of them and ask how they acquired their commercial RC operations insurance. But you could just call your local general insurance provider, give him the details and ask for a quote. But like I said, if you tell the insurance company you are providing a "service" for personal net income, you've just raised the red flag on yourself as far as they are concerned. You best bet is to try and get a rider or maybe just utilize your homeowners. But again, I doubt you'll see nickel 1 if you try to file a claim and they found out you were doing it for any kind of profit without letting them know upfront.

The bottom line is that I doubt very much the AMA's insurance is setup to provide commercial "for profit" liabilities. Afterall their organization is a not for profit, like a church. With being setup as a not for profit gets perks on one side and disadvantages on the other, namely being able to personally bank profits like it sounds like you may want to do. A "ton of money" makes no difference to the IRS, in their minds no job is too small.

Oh but here is a little bit of bad news. If you want to get your own insurance and use that insurance in more then one state, you'll need coverage in each state where you provide the service. This time you can thank local tax and insurance laws for this little surprise.



< Message edited by STLPilot -- 12/5/2007 9:28:44 PM >


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Here At The Wall

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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/5/2007 8:58:08 PM   
Rafael23cc



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From: Junction City, KS, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

Raf,
add up all that compensation for services perfomed,
and ask the IRS if they want to tax that as Income, or if they dont mind you getting hundreds (thousands/year?) without them getting a piece of your pie.

While you may balance out travel & 'per dium' as business operating expenses vs the compensation,
to keep the taxman off your back for all that compensation,
that would kinda make that activity business.... you know, comercial.

And running comercial net zero or in the red is not a problem for the IRS aspect, but it does put a clamp on your AMA Non-Comercial insurance. It is non-comercial, it is not non-profitable-comercial

Guys, rather than trying to find the best way to hide the income
& hope the ameture internet tax lawyers here dont get you audited,
lets just help the guy get the proper insurance.


Although I understand your reasoning, the thread starter said that most of the time not being paid at all leaves them having to pay for some items out of their pocket. If getting paid directly becomes a problem, then reimbursement could be an option. I agree that commercial insurance would be the most reasonable option. I don't do this enough times a year to have an effect on my income.

Rafael

_____________________________

Keep your eyes on the sky but your feet on the ground!
www.runryder.net/helicopter/gallery/1469/

(in reply to KidEpoxy)
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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/5/2007 9:27:25 PM   
STLPilot


 

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Carden one more little detail and believe me this comment is only aimed to help you. Let's say you decided to take it upon yourself to fly these demos for compensation above and beyond expenses. And if you decided to do such a thing without commercial insurance and something really bad happened like a serious injury, I can assure you that because you were flying demos for profit versus flying demos for less then expenses, you will need a very very very good lawyer on side. The reason that commercial insurance laws and commercial tax laws are written is so that people that want to make money utilizing their own "power", utilize responsibility not only in the quality of their product, but also when that product goes bad. Making money in this world takes more responsibility, then it takes hard work.

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Here At The Wall

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RE: GETTING PAID - 12/5/2007 11:29:54 PM   
DadsToysBG



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As a private pilot I can fly you anywhere and I can take your money for the gas. Pay me for my time in the plane and I'd better have more ratings. If you are paid travel and motel OK you are still flying free. Get paid cash money to fly, no AMA and no home owners ins. either. It is a business and needs different insurance.
When I opened my store no one could say what to do. Am I flying for fun or am I promoting my store? I got extra ins. Found out that my trailer wasn't covered either under my home or car ins. because I have a store. Had to buy ins. on that too.
When you start to take money the waters get murky when it come to liability.
Heres another question to toss around. What if you are paid to teach RC flying? Have fun with that one. Dennis



< Message edited by DadsToysBG --