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How to revive R/C Pylon Racing - 12/7/2007 7:05:43 PM   
DonStegall


 

Posts: 614
Joined: 8/8/2005
From: Monroe, NC, USA
Status: offline 		The answer is extremely simple. Support and promote 2 pole club racing.

Less than 5-10% of the clubs out there can host an AMA legal 3 pole course setup. And it is probably closer to 5%.

Probably less than 25% can host a 2 pole course setup to the current AMA specifications.

Work has been done to establish waivers for smaller setbacks for planes with an average speed of less than 100 mph on 2 pole courses. More work is being done to make waivers unnecessary.

You may not find this formula to be something that thrills you. But it gets people involved in racing. Eventually they want to progress to faster planes. Once clubs get involved in racing, some will try to find ways to host bigger 2 pole courses or 3 pole courses. New clubs may even be established that can be 3 pole friendly.

The 2 pole format is more like what guys already do every weekend. They fly out in front of themselves. Dub Jett predicted prior to 2001 that the AMA would dictate the 2 pole out-in-front format. While the AMA has not done that, the reality is that club policies and layouts have.

Club 40 and Quickie 25 are growing dramatically in popularity. The www.Club40Racing.com formula uses planes that are easy to put together, easy to fly, easy to afford, and that fit in on any day at any club. Quickie 25 is not a new idea. But it is picking up. Especially when flown on 2 pole courses.

I personally love the 3 pole course. But the reality is that getting new people and clubs involved is easier with the 2 pole course.

In other threads, the cost of racing has been discussed. A large part of the cost of racing is traveling to contests. When racing becomes a one day affair, with plenty of racing within a 3 hour drive, it will grow and new racers will become addicted. The whole pylon racing community will benefit


_____________________________

Don Stegall
RCPRO - http://www.rcpro.org - http://www.rcpylon.com
       Post #: 1

RE: How to revive R/C Pylon Racing - 12/7/2007 8:09:50 PM   
Super Splatter



Posts: 381
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: , MN, USA
Status: offline 		I say 2 pole is just as dangerous, what if there's a midair and those models spin to the outside of the turn, thats' where your standing doing 2 pole , with 3 pole it spun away from you. Pick your own demise.

Outlaw Internet, PC games, PC correctness , make kids go out into the sunshine. Why would someone leave there home if you can experance all of lifes activies thur virtual experances in the comforts of there own home. Why would someone risk liabity if they could just stay home and watch South Park.

People have to work longer hours, drive further and once they relize that effort is required you loose a bunch of people. I'd say put up flyers at the local race track. Once I saw my first pylon race, I junked all my junker race cars and went with models. My neighbors thanked me for that.

Where's the @#% spell check

(in reply to DonStegall)
       Post #: 2

RE: How to revive R/C Pylon Racing - 12/8/2007 2:10:55 AM   
gunfighter


 

Posts: 604
Joined: 7/13/2002
From: Canyon Lake, TX, USA
Status: offline
quote:

I say 2 pole is just as dangerous, what if there's a midair and those models spin to the outside of the turn, thats' where your standing doing 2 pole , with 3 pole it spun away from you.


SS - I would not argue your point (very much) if we were ONLY talking about the Pilots. However, at a typical 3 pole race how many are inside the circle - 4 pilots, 4 callers, 1 or 2 race officials, and how many are OUTSIDE the circle - 20+ race officials, all pilots not in the current heat plus SPECTATORS.

The 2 pole course requires less course workers, (7) therefore less people are in the possible danger zone.

The sport racing community is not trying to "Outlaw" or keep any one from running 3 pole races. It is just much easier to get new pilots to fly on the 2 pole course because it is natural and non-threatening.

This thread is not about which course is safer, it is about how to get more pilots to try pylon racing and MAYBE move up to the faster events to replace some of the pilots that are no longer racing these classes for one reason or another.

And even more importantly, this is about having FUN!!!

(in reply to Super Splatter)
       Post #: 3

RE: How to revive R/C Pylon Racing - 12/8/2007 1:43:24 PM   
Super Splatter



Posts: 381
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: , MN, USA
Status: offline 		Good reply G-man , I was ranting ... it's -5 F at the moment and I wanna fly.

(in reply to gunfighter)
       Post #: 4

RE: How to revive R/C Pylon Racing - 12/8/2007 5:34:55 PM   
Scorpion Racing



Posts: 165
Joined: 1/21/2006
From: Lake Wales, FL, USA
Status: offline 		I have no issue with 2 pole racing, I used to enjoy the ones the Sarasota club had each month. I do hope the club 40 brings in some new people to racing, but I really haven't seen a lot of it yet. We host 2 424~428 races each year in Mulberry and I always make a point to advertise it on RCU and offer to assist anyone new. We wil even set up the course and run practice days! Rick, Allen and I set up to practice prior to the events, so having a few more guys to fly with would be great!

I think the guys enjoying the 2 pole racing would LOVE the 3 pole, if they will just come out and try it once. We will be having a race mid March, and I will offer to help anyone and do a practice day for anyone wanting to try it. Just let me know! I have to say that the Pylon bunch has to be one of the friendliest groups to be in. have never had trouble finding help. My very first race I attended alone, and I had tons of guys introduce themselves and help me all weekend. In fact, the President of SEMPRA called for me all weekend! Come out and play guys, 424 is a blast!


_____________________________

Scott Smith
ssmith@hansonwalter.com

(in reply to Super Splatter)
       Post #: 5

RE: How to revive R/C Pylon Racing - 12/8/2007 6:43:12 PM   
Super Splatter



Posts: 381
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: , MN, USA
Status: offline 		back in the 80's when the Scat Cat was king I heard they sold 4000 kits a year. where did all those folks go ?

(in reply to Scorpion Racing)
       Post #: 6

RE: How to revive R/C Pylon Racing - 12/8/2007 7:24:04 PM   
js3



Posts: 1141
Joined: 1/30/2002
From: Arvada, CO, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Super Splatter

back in the 80's when the Scat Cat was king I heard they sold 4000 kits a year. where did all those folks go ?


Most of the kits would have been sold to people that don't race--people who just wanted the plane. Then take away (how many?) kits that remain unbuilt. How many are left?

You point is well taken, SS. That remains a rather large number of people who bought the plane, built it, flew it, and raced it.

_____________________________

John
I feel a lot more like I do now than I did earlier!

(in reply to Super Splatter)
       Post #: 7

RE: How to revive R/C Pylon Racing - 12/10/2007 7:29:20 AM   
tsawyer148



Posts: 306
Joined: 3/13/2003
From: Southern, UT, USA
Status: offline 		I have been watching these threads over the last little while and I would like to give some input. Please understand that these are my opinions only and come from my own personal experience.

There are a few things that seem like are being overlooked as far as trying to revive racing. First off, everything is a game of numbers. When I read through the threads not only in this forum but on other sites, it is alot of the same people that are posting. I have found that when you talk to people, the majority of them are not aware of the RCPRO site, or the NMPRA site or even the USRA site. It seems that racing in general would be served well if it were promoted outside of the normal circles. It is hard to find any listings of ANY type of racing events unless you come to this area of the forums or to a specific site. There are many people in this area who used to race several years ago, but due to many factors, are not involved anymore. These same people are not aware of the different organizations that are around now and the many different types of racing that are being promoted. All they remember is the old Quickie races and when the purpose built engines came onto the scene, it became too expensive and they gave up. I don't have a real viable answer to this, but it is hard to find information about racing unless you look in specific places. The more information you can get to more people, may be one way to help.

Another thing I have noticed is that, even at the club levels, it is hard to find a club or event that really does appeal to an "entry level" type of racer. Even the Club 40 events as they are require a flyer to have a specific plane/engine combination. Even though it is fairly inexpensive to get started, it still requires an investment and may turn out that the pilot does not want to do it.

There is also the demographics of any certain area. There may be racing events around but they may be several miles away. To get more people involved may require that it is brought more to the actual club level to be more revelant to the type of pilots in the club. For example, one of the clubs I belong to has members that range in ability from beginner to some of the best overall pilots around. Another club I belong to has a few experienced pilots but for the most part is made up of your average run of the mill sport/casual flyer. Another club in the area is comprised almost entirely of retired members that fly pretty much only trainers and small sport planes. There is a fair majority of members from all of these clubs have shown an interest in racing, yet very few of them want to make any sort of a commitment to put together a "specialty" plane to race.

Over the last year or so, I have been trying to put together races in our area. The first race we had 5 pilots, and the next race we had 11. We have another one scheduled on New Years day and so far it looks as though we will have somewhere between 15 and 20. It all started by promoting it as a just for fun event with very few restrictions while still keeping the format so it would fall within the guideines of the AMA. Basically a fly what you brung sort of event, running a two pole course, minimum wingspan and maximum engine size with no entry fee and no real clear cut winner. So far it is working out well and through this, it is alot easier to convey what other types of racing there are and with the help of some of the other pilots, we are slowly working into specific racing classes. However, the one thing that has consistenlty been brought up is that we should always keep the "just for fun" class for anyone who either wants to just try racing or has no interest in actually winning but is more there for the fun and excitment.

Another thing to consider may be to not push the racing as a "club" event. In every club I have been involved with or visited, you can almost always count on there being a few members who want to give their opinion about any event that is being promoted by their club, even though they are not an active participant. These are usually the first ones to get their feelings hurt and rake the most muck when they feel like no one is listening to them. What we are trying to do here, because we are dealing with at least 3 different clubs, is to keep the racing end of it as an organization outside of the club itself. The clubs are promoting the races, but the race itself is being put on and managed by a group of 5 or 6 guys from different clubs. In otherwords, the rules and equipment and the running of the race is being accomplished by people who are racers themselves. So far it seems to be working well, but we'll see.

The fact is you will always have proponents of the 2 pole and 3 pole racing, there will always be those who do not want to slow the speeds down and, until you can get a real foothold on what the majority wants, it may be very tough to get the AMA to change the rules. Along with that, no matter what, as with any sport there will more than likely be the "outlaws" who are going to do what they want.

One of the clubs around here was very hesitant to even think about trying to put races together just because they were unsure of the equipment. In their minds, they thought you had to have big, extravagant pylons made form heaven knows how many hundreds of board feet of lumber or some other expensive material. The equipment to run a race can be an extremely inexpensive process. There really is no need to have all the fancy stuff, just two or three poles sticking up out of the ground that can be seen from however far away and a few people with stop watches. There is a little more to it than that I know, but for the most part you see alot of the specialized equipment that is being used and it is hard to convince some people that it really doesn't need to start out that way. Is it even really a necessity that a race be held at an actual flying site? Seems that if you can find some place that is safe and keeps you within the guidelines of the AMA safety code, you could hold a race once or twice a year. I know that is going out on a limb a bit, but it is another alternative.

Anyway, I am doing what I can to gain interest in racing in my area, but it is a long drawn out process. I can only encourage anyone that is attempting to do the same to not give up and above all else, keep it fun and exciting. It's late and I am tired so I may re-read this tomorrow morning and realize I have my head up my a$$....

T.

_____________________________

I Love the smell of glow fuel in the morning....And lately, the smell of epoxy in the evening...

(in reply to js3)
       Post #: 8

RE: How to revive R/C Pylon Racing - 12/10/2007 1:42:04 PM   
Jezmo



Posts: 792
Joined: 6/26/2006
From: Spring, TX, USA
Status: offline 		I mentioned the make it a run what you brung event (within reason) at one of our meetings and no one seemed to like it. If people want to have participation and get other folks hooked this is what you have to do. I was told I couldn't run a Super Sportster 40 with a junky old hard to adjust 49.95 SuperTigre G40 on it because the plane cost too much. My first reaction was fine go play with yourself and quit asking me to participate. I am having fun right now. I went ahead and bought an LA Racer and have run some races now. Glad I did, it's turned out to be quite fun but looking back there was a fine line that I just barely stepped over. If the racing group wants to get participation and get the interest up you have to have race for fun events where people don't have to go spend money to see if they like it. If I am running an LA Racer with a 40 on it and someone else is running a Sweet Stick with an off the shelf average run of the mill 45 we are going to be very competitive. It might even be feasible to say 40 powered ships run open props and the 45 crowd have to run less pitch in order to control speed. But most of all run what you brung events make it possible to see if you like it without unloading money. Just an innocent bystanders two cents.

_____________________________

Raptor 50 V2 OS 50 Hyper, T-Rex 450XL CDE, Spektrum DX7, SuperTigre OS FOX Saito Enya Jett TT

(in reply to tsawyer148)
       Post #: 9

RE: How to revive R/C Pylon Racing - 12/10/2007 2:08:52 PM   
dwbebens


 

Posts: 196
Joined: 4/25/2005
From: Dickson, TN, USA
Status: offline 		tsawyer48;

Wow - - great post. You make so many good points.

I especially like the idea of a "run-what-you-brung" type of race as a purely fun event to introduce the very first timers to racing. Years ago, we used to run the AMA "Sport Pylon" class which had a wing area to displacement rule and also forbade specialty racing planes and engines. This was a popular class in our area. Many of us back then started racing in this way.

You are providing a great example of how to get racing started in an area. Your approach appears to be working.

Keep up the good work.

Doug Bebensee







(in reply to tsawyer148)
       Post #: 10

RE: How to revive R/C Pylon Racing - 12/10/2007 4:02:09 PM   
vicman



Posts: 6057
Joined: 12/8/2002
From: Valdese, NC, USA
Status: offline 		This is basically what Don has done with his "Pylon Parties".
It's all about fun and learning and not hard core competition. There will be days that are for serious racing to be sure. If you set some pylons up at you field on a Saturday and have some fun flying around them and a few others with a Superstar or some other plane want to fly the pattern who is the looser. I was flying my C-40 with a guy who had a nice P-40 just racing around last week. If guys want to have fun with you on your practice days why not let em? Shoot I even let them fly my C-40 just to experience the plane! It has been in the hands of at least 6 others already plus my 8yr old son. Saturday he got more stick time than I did.


_____________________________

Bigger Badder Meaner Faster!
Revver Brotherhood & NMPRA #41

(in reply to dwbebens)
       Post #: 11

RE: How to revive R/C Pylon Racing - 12/10/2007 6:56:47 PM   
Hossfly



Posts: 3742
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: New Caney, TX, USA
Status: offline 		First: Reply is to thread and NOT to RCU Default vicman.

2nd: Kudos to Jezmo, dwbeebens, and tsawyer for their insights and inputs.

Now, Flame suit on:

Doug, happy to hear that you liked those old AMA Sport Pylon Rules since I wrote those rules and got them accepted way back before the SIGs took over the Nats. After that the SIGs became the rule writers, which was relatively easy since a Rule Book is no longer a part of AMA membership, and few newbies have a clue that such does exist.
NMPRA got rid of that stuff where an individual could think and determine his own method of airplane selection. Today's newbies have little idea of anything RC outside some aerobatic airplane -- resembling the 1:1 scale aerobatic machines -- and such model is used for the main purpose of blocking runways.

Racing is fun, whether 2 or 3 pylon courses. Unfortunately one has to have that individual competitive spirit if one is to pursue such. Such spirit is -- in today's "learned" society -- strongly discouraged outside certain contained sports' programs where the group team is promoted, yet individual accomplishment receives the awards. Our society promotes followerers that simply have a great disdain for trying to stand out from the crowd, that they don't wish to be seen with less than a 30% 3D machine once they make an initial solo with some trainer. That results in a short time doing RC modeling as a sport/hobby.

So the average club-member of the last 15 years has little knowledge of RC outside his local club. Pylon Racing sounds dangerous, but 3 40%ers blocking the runway is OK! Now while the average club member will follow the Big Boys and get some kind of 200-300X thing for flying, and if in the .40 size, it will have the hottest .45 he can afford, when something is proposed that might be fun, the basic rules are made so very restrictive that very few will jump to it. You can see where this is going!

First, A Contest Director for any AMA Sanctioned Event can denounce any published rule for that event, outside the Safety Code, if he/she publishes that exception in the sanction application and the advertising for the event. CHANGES? -- NOT a problem??
Well Yes and NO. A CD takes chances if he gets too radical. He may or may not get those that will "fly what you brung" and OTOH he may make the structured desciples angry and they may or may not show. Most CDs take the safe way and go with the flow. So no new promotion for the newbies that just might have given the event a try.

The Club 40 event comes to mind. IMO, it is by far too restricted. My suggestion is that any model with standard wing, fuse, tail, a 560 square inches wing, 14% section for 90% of the span, and a front rotary .45 cu, ins. engine, with muffler and carb. to permit sit-alone idle, should be good to go. Then the average club-member can pick up his sport flier and get into the game without having to buy a new outfit. (Have you noticed that a newbie will spend $110 for the OS 45 when a $65 ST ABC will perform just as well, yet newbie will forever complain about club and AMA membership?)

For a number of years I pushed scale warbird racing here in my area. I donated $1000.00 each of several years for cash awards to the top 4 winners, along with the many other items we came up with. (Unlike NMPRA folks, I have no commercial interest within the modeling industry) First, we had good turnouts, but then it went downhill because rules, even broadened from SWRA basics, were restrictive and the models that most fliers liked, outside the P-51, were not -- at that time -- competitive. In addition the scale part of the event placed the ARFs in a bad second place as compared to the builder's scale subjects. No ARF is really scale, especially the P-51s. YUCK! Builders are also in short supply.

Now to make this short story longer, I will add that I am trying to get Club 40 going in my club. So far there are few takers. I think there are two other airplanes although several are promising but not yet performing. Even so I plan to get the club to approve a few days to hold club-only events during the spring. These events will conform to my basics above. I might allow larger engines with an extra lap or maybe 4" pitch props for significantle larger airframes. These subjects are scheduled to be accomplished at a meeting with the Club Ex. Committee in Jan. after the holidays.

The club has approved a Club 40 race for June 21. I have not yet decided to include the 424 and if I am persuaded to do so, the TT 40 rule will be exempted. Any AMA Q-500 legal airframe with any front rotary, muffler, carb permitting sit-alone idle, will be good to go. If NMPRA wants it differently, then they better get off their backside and get more approved engines. Besides, there is a 50% discount # frequently advertised by FOX and those 'Made in USA' engines look better to me all the time.

All in all, pylon racing can be promoted by showing it off and using the KISS method. Keep it SIMPLE within the club. Those that have the desire will then move up out of the crowd. The lesser restrictions and a chance for an individual to move beyond the mainstream will work, IF GIVEN A CHANCE. Those without the competitive spirit, that just enjoy the local level, will still be promoters for those coming later. Get rid of the chains that bind.





_____________________________

Horrace Cain.
AMA Life L-93, Leader and CD for 45 years

The only source of knowledge is experience. Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school. Albert Einstein

(in reply to vicman)
       Post #: 12

RE: How to revive R/C Pylon Racing - 12/10/2007 9:06:37 PM   
gunfighter


 

Posts: 604
Joined: 7/13/2002
From: Canyon Lake, TX, USA
Status: offline 		This reply is also to "The Thread" not to Horace...

I see, in this thread, replys from people that seem to have a genuine interest in reviving "sport" racing throughout the country. I applaud your efforts. I would just like to say a few things from our experience in South / Central Texas.

We started / re-started sport racing in May of '06. There had been several groups flying several classes in the past in this area and many pilots and clubs had a &