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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/4/2008 10:09 PM   
bob27s



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Status: offline 		Maybe so.... does take a lot of energy to puch a hole in the sky and reach 150mph with anything..... and this is not a small plane.

And you are correct, prop selection is important. Im not sure a 12" disk is the answer for speed though.

I fly some electric, but Im not really a fan. I'm in this sport for the engines when it comes down to it... and I like building too.

I'm expecting the 9" diameter to be the right solution for a speed bias and otherwise balanced performance. 60Lx and 10x6 appears to be good for 130 range. I think an approach toward a bit higher rpm and getting the disk area down will do better ----- more of a pylon setup may be in order.


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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/4/2008 10:49 PM   
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Status: offline 		Bob I think the plane is too draggy for a 9". Probably similar in drag to something like the Bobcat 50 which someone ran a 9x6 taching 26,000rpm via high power electric and the plane barely went 80. I doubt something smaller than 11" will get you to 150mph. Probably more like 12" minimum. IN which case not sure how many IC engines can spin a 12x12" prop at 16,500. THat would be 150mph through a 12x12 with 80% slip.

Maybe one of these days I'll pickup a Sundowner 50 and give it a shot. Isn't more than $450 for the power system which is probably not much more expensive than an IC engine that can do the above.

< Message edited by z06kal -- 4/4/2008 10:53 PM >

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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/8/2008 4:16 AM   
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Status: offline 		with the jett 90lx on the Sundowner 50, and a APC 11 x 8, i turned 14,300 and 133mph on the radar gun. had a slight problem on landing last week so while the Sundowner was in for repair, i stuck the 90lx on my Bobcat 52 with an APC 11 x 7 pusher and turned 115 mph....with fixed gear. i'm building a new Bobcat with heavy duty retracts. i'm hoping for 125 mph.

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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/8/2008 6:05 AM   
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ORIGINAL: bob27s

Maybe so.... does take a lot of energy to puch a hole in the sky and reach 150mph with anything..... and this is not a small plane.

And you are correct, prop selection is important. Im not sure a 12" disk is the answer for speed though.

I fly some electric, but Im not really a fan. I'm in this sport for the engines when it comes down to it... and I like building too.

I'm expecting the 9" diameter to be the right solution for a speed bias and otherwise balanced performance. 60Lx and 10x6 appears to be good for 130 range. I think an approach toward a bit higher rpm and getting the disk area down will do better ----- more of a pylon setup may be in order.



Hey Bob,

Have your heard anything new about the Jett 60lx setups on this plane. I wonder what the fastest speed is so far.



Justin

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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/8/2008 4:17 PM   
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Status: offline 		Pilotoe I'm running a 12x12 @ 11,400rpm via electric on my bobcat 50. It does 118mph level flight like that on radar. I do have retracts but I honostly feel the retracts have no drag advantage on this plane as the retract setup severely disrupts the airflow across the fusalage and wings. I'm gonna be putting a higher KV motor on there and take it up to about 14,000rpm on the 12x12. Maybe pickup another 20mph if I'm lucky.

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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/8/2008 4:49 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bob27s

Here is the sundowner 60LX setup Dub and Mike put together. Pretty much in line with what I described way up earlier in the thread, and similar to the photos posted of another 60LX powered bird.

Dub is going to offer a "sundowner" package that includes the exhaust spacer/angle and an engine mount that accomplishes the rotation and offset from the firewall.

Note how clean this setup is. Muffler enters the fuselage. A baffle/tray/deflector is build inside of the fueslage to enclose the muffler area a bit. Exhaust exits the bottom of the plane. Small cutout is required in the cowl to clear the foward part of the muffler.

More photos once they get it in the air this weekend.




Ok, I have some flight data to share....

Setup was the 60LX engine, 8oz bubble-jett tank, 10x6 APC prop (also flew with a 9x7 zinger). Engine backed down 800-1000 rpm off peak for launch.

Honest level flight speed, little to no wind, 130mph. Several level passes of 133, 134, 135. In a shallow dive entering the radar cracked 140 a bit.

It is expected that a bit better speed will come from using a 9x8 or 9x9. Neither was tested this weekend.

(Radar is a fixed mount, remote display that is used for testing the racing setups)

Aircraft and engine combination was extremely smooth, pattern ship type performance, and the plane flew great in all aspects of flight, take-off and landing.

I will post a few photos when Dub sends them along

Bob


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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/8/2008 5:33 PM   
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Status: offline 		how does the sundowner compair size and weight wise to the toni. i thought they were about the same size. i have my 60lx on a h9 u-stick. when i put a 9 size prop on it i loose speed. glad to here about a ext. package w/ this engine. the problem has always been to get the muffler to fit w/out a lot of ext,s. hey patz, see you next fall w/ my toni 90lx setup. finally got it dialed in.

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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/8/2008 6:19 PM   
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Status: offline 		Sound get Russ. We had our 1/8 Air Force event and it was a blast. There are a few Sundowner 50 and 1 bigger Sundowner. There are about 2 Toni's . I flew my F-16, Sundowner, and Piper Cub.


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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/8/2008 6:37 PM   
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Status: offline 		bob27s what kinda RPM are you taching with that Jet 60lx? 130mph on a 10x6 works out to nearly 23,000rpm with 0% slip. I'm actually surprised that a 10" disc worked out this well on the Sundowner. It must be more slippery than it appears. I still think, however, it will be slower on the 9". Only one way to find out tho .

< Message edited by z06kal -- 4/8/2008 6:39 PM >

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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/8/2008 7:37 PM   
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Status: offline 		gotta think the 90lx would be a better engine for the sundowner. pat, what kind of speed are you geting w/ the 91fx? somewhere there has to be a power to weight ratio that makes sense on any given plane. if you have to add a lot of weight to cg the plane, then what has anyone really acomplished?

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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/9/2008 4:35 AM   
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Ok, I have some flight data to share....

Setup was the 60LX engine, 8oz bubble-jett tank, 10x6 APC prop (also flew with a 9x7 zinger). Engine backed down 800-1000 rpm off peak for launch.

Honest level flight speed, little to no wind, 130mph. Several level passes of 133, 134, 135. In a shallow dive entering the radar cracked 140 a bit.

It is expected that a bit better speed will come from using a 9x8 or 9x9. Neither was tested this weekend.

(Radar is a fixed mount, remote display that is used for testing the racing setups)

Aircraft and engine combination was extremely smooth, pattern ship type performance, and the plane flew great in all aspects of flight, take-off and landing.

I will post a few photos when Dub sends them along

Bob




Thanks for the Update Bob! Let us know when the 9 x 9 or Other props are tested. It looks like if the 10 x 6 prop pulled that kind of speed then it should really scoot on a 10 x 8 or 9 x 9! I think im forgetting something...? Oh if possible... We want Video!!! haha


< Message edited by Yellowsierra02 -- 4/9/2008 4:39 AM >

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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/9/2008 5:24 AM   
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Status: offline 		Russm I don't know what speed the Sundowner with the OS 91. If I had to guess I would say 100+. As for as weight I just moved my battery around to get the CG correct. We have a few guys at the field with a YS 91, but it has not seen the air yet. I like to see the match up a match up between an OS 91FX, YS 91 or 110, and Jett 61 or 91, Who you think will win?

quote:

ORIGINAL: russm

gotta think the 90lx would be a better engine for the sundowner. pat, what kind of speed are you geting w/ the 91fx? somewhere there has to be a power to weight ratio that makes sense on any given plane. if you have to add a lot of weight to cg the plane, then what has anyone really acomplished?




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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/9/2008 3:07 PM   
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Status: offline 		I know my money would be on the Jett 60LX. The .90LX would need a larger prop and for a plane this light I don't think it would be utilized very well. I think Dub got it right with the .60LX...low weight, right size prop, and very high RPM.

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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/9/2008 4:27 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yellowsierra02

quote:


Ok, I have some flight data to share....

Setup was the 60LX engine, 8oz bubble-jett tank, 10x6 APC prop (also flew with a 9x7 zinger). Engine backed down 800-1000 rpm off peak for launch.

Honest level flight speed, little to no wind, 130mph. Several level passes of 133, 134, 135. In a shallow dive entering the radar cracked 140 a bit.

It is expected that a bit better speed will come from using a 9x8 or 9x9. Neither was tested this weekend.

(Radar is a fixed mount, remote display that is used for testing the racing setups)

Aircraft and engine combination was extremely smooth, pattern ship type performance, and the plane flew great in all aspects of flight, take-off and landing.

I will post a few photos when Dub sends them along

Bob




Thanks for the Update Bob! Let us know when the 9 x 9 or Other props are tested. It looks like if the 10 x 6 prop pulled that kind of speed then it should really scoot on a 10 x 8 or 9 x 9! I think im forgetting something...? Oh if possible... We want Video!!! haha



I will ask if Mike and Dub can toss together a video when time permits.

I am not sure about the 90LX. I know at least a couple people have tried it. With a 10x10 on it, it can get up around 16,000 rpm and we know an 11x8 gets up over 15,000 without a problem. But there is more complexity ---- muffler will likely have to be entirely external too.

Can the airframe handle it?

And, is it worth it to put a 90LX up front? This is a semi-scale ARF aircraft. Sure, nice plane..... flys well. Seems to be well designed. The 60LX, an OS 55 or a Webra 50/55 would be a great match. Nice here to see the variety of engines being tried both 2c and 4c. Give good perspective.

Personally I would rather toss a 90LX in an old Tipo .. would enjoy it more in the long run, and its pleanty fast.


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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/14/2008 2:02 PM   
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Status: offline 		Just a brief post here..... sorry, no video to work with....

Dub spent a fun day at the field with the Sundowner yesterday. I''ve not heard him quite so excited about a plane in a while. His comments were that it flys like a 120mph pattern ship... nice knife edge.... very crisp.

Engine proved out nicely. Dub has made a few tweeks to the 60LX to address some on-and-off issues with folks blowing glow plugs. No problems. They even ran the engine lean on purpose and let the tank run down to empty. Plug held up fine. So at least that aspect is out of the way.

Speeds from last time out were validated - solid level flight (no wind) 120+ mph with a 10x6 up front. Ground rpm is about 17,500. An APC 9x8 did a bit better upwards of 130. Fastest level flight speeds recorded so far were actually with a zinger 9x7 - engine really unloaded, pushed well over 130.

I will post a few images when I receive them.


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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/14/2008 6:09 PM   
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Status: offline 		a few photos.....


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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/14/2008 6:21 PM   
bob27s



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Credit where credit is deserved. Mike Helsel did a great job working on this installation, and test flying the aircraft. His work here validated a VERY good flying aircraft and an outstanding engine application.

Note the muffler installation, and the exhaust outlet. My original sketch of the layout had the exhaust exit the bottom, but this side exhaust exit helped avoid an interference with the landing gear area. The rubber outlet shown in the one close up photo was replace with the hard-tube, larger inside diameter which can be seen on one of the front views, which is simply connected to the muffler outlet with a piece of silicone tube like a pipe/header.

The engine is installed not-quite at 90deg... cylinder slightly down a degree or two. Muffler enters the fuselage as it appears. As noted in a previous post the engine mount was setup to adapt to the needed configuration.

The remote needle is installed on the firewall box. This installation is being revised a bit... a little too much tubing used, but it was a decent solution at first for fueling the aircraft through the cowl air inlet hole . I understand the update here will be to simply exit the cowl locally there and cut down on the line length. Point here is, even with this setup and lots of fuel line in the mix, the engine ran just fine. The resulting needle position was about 1.5-2 turns further out than usual.

I trust the info an images are helpful. The same sort of arrangement can apply to other brand engines and other size of engines. Just requires a little planning.

Bob


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< Message edited by bob27s -- 4/14/2008 6:22 PM >


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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/14/2008 6:24 PM   
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Status: offline 		Ah, don''t know what you''ve been reading but I have 2 O.S. 91 FS and I have an O.S. 120 AX, the O.S. 120 AX drops right into the same bracket as the 91 with 20% more power, no marketing trick. I litterally pulled a 91 out and dropped in a 120ax.

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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/15/2008 5:04 PM   
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Status: offline 		BOB,

The Jett set up is the best I''ve seen and is a very clean with minimal hacking of the cowl. I''m going with a 55AX in mine, simply because I already have that engine. I''m wondering if I can get the same muffler set up from Jett Engineering for that engine?

Thanks,

Todd Schmidt

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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/15/2008 5:31 PM   
bob27s



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Status: offline 		Hi Todd.....

The moment I saw the air-cooling ducts.. I was certain the engine install was going to work out just great Mike and Dub did a wonderful job on refining that concept.

Yes, Jett offers a jett-stream muffler for the 55AX. It actually creates a VERY good power combination. Props such as a 10x7 or 10x8 would be ideal in this application. An 11x6 might suprise you too.

It will be the standard version jett-stream .46 size. The one shown here is the LX which is slightly shorter. But the same installation will work with the longer muffler.

If you chose to go that route, when ordering note the engine and the aircraft, and request an exhaust angle/spacer piece.

Bob


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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/15/2008 5:46 PM   
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Status: offline 		Thanks Bob, I really appreciate the info!

Todd

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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/15/2008 6:59 PM   
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Status: offline 		Has anybody who has built a 130+mph sundowner 50 had to do anything to beef up the airframe? Any flutter? My buddy and I are putting together an electric one that should do 150-160. Plane is backordered and havn''t had a chance to go through the airframe and inspect it.

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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/15/2008 7:36 PM   
bob27s



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Status: offline 		Seal the control surface hinge gaps ...... do the customary checking of the glue joints.

The cowl mounting points are fairly solid, but Dub had one pop off.

Seams fairly solid at this point.

Pushing 150 or 160 mph is an entirely different level of energy to exert on the airframe. That is unknown territory for the moment.


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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/16/2008 5:10 AM   
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Status: offline 		I think the SD 50 is built very strong, but doing your normal insurance techniques would never nurt


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RE: Sundowner 50 Arf - 4/16/2008 4:25 PM   
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Status: offline 		so, is is safe to say that the 2 "fastest" setups would be a YS 1.10 or the Jett 60LX setup like bob? i am about to pull the trigger on one of these motors? Which one?? i cant decide

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