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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/26/2012 8:37 PM   
Reverend



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Status: offline 		Ah, and to prove JAAV was right... heres a comparison of the pickled cam gear and the new one. GEEEEEZ...



GN8 all,
Rev

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/26/2012 9:35 PM   
Carosel43


 

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Status: online 		Kmot, i am glad i gave you a chuckle! sorry if you did spit coffee everywhere though. i will try and keep my british humour to myself next time

Rev, the drill was a great idea and the material must be better than the chinese monkey metal. and regarding the pitted cam gear im sure it would still work even though it looks unhealthy...unless its gone brittle or something. It would be interesting to put an os/saito/laser crank in the JAAV's caustic juice and see what happens. It could just be crap quality steel causing the problem. In fact a blunt hss drill would do for a test.

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/27/2012 7:07 AM   
Reverend



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Status: offline 		ok, 10 HSS Drills for EUR 1,99. Ordered 30

On another note: Tom and I had a similar idea. I spoke to my brother in law last weekend (he's a fitter) and we spoke about hardening small steel parts. The basic idea is to oil harden those cam rings. Not very difficult to do and done right, it would harden those rings by quite some N/mm².

I would like to try with those pitted cam rings first as a proof of concept.

Biggest Problem is, I do not know what old motorcycle parts those cams where made of so oil hardening may or may not be the correct way to go. Any ideas on that?


Rev


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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/27/2012 8:24 AM   
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Status: online 		As long as both materials end up slightly different hardness you should be fine from a wear point of view. what you could try is to center punch the dead one and see what mark is left, then have a go at hardening it, and then punch it again to see the difference. We use oil to harden our pushrods. The rods are normal piano wire (pretty tough in the first place) which is finish turned on the end to give the ball and accurate length. We then oil harden them. As its not my job to do that im not sure exactly how we do it but i will ask and get back to you


EDIT:

Ok, had a chat with the guys and as i kinda expected they would not recommend using oil to harden a part like that. Also by heating it up you may remove any hardening done by the factory. the best bet would be to do as we do and get it done by a specialist hardening company. That way you can get them to harden your drill blanks at the same time. The problem is however as you harden the cams you may have to harden the drive gear and crank to prevent wear moving down the line. or were you just hoping to toughen up the rings? If you do decide to try oil dont use acetylene as you will make the parts brittle due to the addition of extra carbon. Propane works much better. As a measure of how hard they are now if you run a small swiss file over it can you get the file to bite? if not then its pretty hard anyway and i would leave it alone

< Message edited by Carosel43 -- 11/27/2012 9:05 AM >

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/27/2012 9:01 AM   
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Status: offline 		basically hardening (as I remember from the workshop at school) is always the same.

Heat the metal to about 1450°F and quench it in Oil.

When its cooled, reheat it to 320°F in an oven and let it slowly cool.

Voilá.

Would be great to know how the guys at laser do it. Only problem is, that the Pianowire will be a different type of steel...

rev

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/27/2012 9:07 AM   
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Status: online 		Hi Rev, see edit to my previous post! we get ALL of our parts hardened by a hardening company, i just so happen to know the pushrods were oil hardened. Everything else is case or nitrile hardened and is very tough!

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/27/2012 10:05 AM   
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Status: offline 		It's been a LONG time but when I used to work in a forging shop we hardened a lot of stuff, Case hardening would be the best for gears IMHO because it gives it a hard surface but not the brittle cracking of gears that full hardening will. Either way after hardening it will need some annealing to relieve the stress from the hardening. One other thing to watch out for is if there is any stress in the material when hardening it WILL warp the piece being hardened. Most manufactured gears that get hardened are pre machined before it gets hardened then after gets ground to finished tolerances to remove any of the warping from the heating of the part. So I again I think case hardening is the best bet, Less chance of warping (lower temps used) and a little easier than oil quenching the stuff. I don't remember all the details but we put the parts in carbon wrapped in foil then into a furnace.

Dauntae

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/27/2012 10:12 AM   
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Status: offline 		ok, due to my limited possabilities and the fact, that the engine will not run 24/7 I guess I will look into oil hardening.

Should it not work I will not harden the stuff at all and check the Parts for wear after 30 Minutes runtime.





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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/27/2012 11:23 AM   
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Status: offline 		Well I can say that if the case hardening is too hard I have a bottle of this good cleaner that will erase the hardness.

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/27/2012 1:41 PM   
Carosel43


 

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Status: online 		it will also erase the parts!

Rev if you run it as is any wear will be obvious as the valves will constantly need adjusting, my 400 was hopeless but as many have said it took a little while for it to settle after i rebuilt it. now i just leave them alone.

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/27/2012 6:47 PM   
Kmot



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Status: offline 		jaav: What exactly was the stuff you soaked those parts in?

I have a suspicion my cam lobe rings were not hardened correctly. I have new cam rings on the way. I am considering oil hardening them.

Long trivia story:

After not being able to make ends meet as an aircraft mechanic due to ridiculous low wages prevailing at the time, I got work at the Los Angeles metro bus organization that provides public transportation. Made a career of it.

The buses have big axles that are held on by 8 studs. It is a common occurrence for them to start to loosen and then the axle cap starts to wiggle about. We know they have loosened because we see diff oil leaking onto the wheel. So into the shop it goes and often times the studs snap off because they have been taking a pounding by the axles head or cap. Trying to center punch a broken, jagged stud was always near impossible. Drilling an off-center hole and then using an extractor usually ended up with a broken extractor, inside a broken stud, inside a hub. Not good.

So I made a tool. I took a Grade 8 bolt that was the same size as a axle stud and fit the hole snugly and chopped of the end, ground a point on it and then heated it cherry red with an oxy/acetylene torch and then dropped it into a bucket of 30 Wt. motor oil. That my friends is how I do oil hardening.

That center punch I made, did perfect 'center' punches on those broken jagged studs and I used it dozens and dozens and dozens of times over the years and the point hardly dulled.

Point is, don't 'over think' oil hardening. It's not rocket science.

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/28/2012 8:40 PM   
Carosel43


 

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Status: online 		new there is ingenuity!

Also, just to clarify my comments regarding the use of acetylene do depend on the steel you are working with. if you are using a high carbon steel already you will add more if using acetylene and risk making the part brittle on the teeth as they are very thin. i would use the dead one as a test piece and see what you get

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/29/2012 11:35 PM   
Reverend



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Status: offline 		Tom: Sounds pretty basic. I have, however, decided against it. I did a test on the old and new cams. Dropped a quite new center punch from 1 meter directly on them (through a tube). The punch made quite a mark on the old cam rings and was still sharp. On the new you can see the mark, but you cannot feel it. the punch is now blunt. Maybe Sanye has changed the hardening process.

Got some progress in today. Assembled the front housing with the new bearings and all. really looks great with that shiny new crankshaft



Stuck the back casing on just for the hell of it... I can already hear those cylinders growling.



Well, now I have to wait.

- Forgot to order the master rod bearing. Its coming monday.
- Waiting for those drills to make cam followers, should arrive tomorrow
- Piston rings from HK in the mail. Date of impact: ??

Have a great friday, y'all

Rev

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/29/2012 11:48 PM   
Kmot



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Reverend

The punch made quite a mark on the old cam rings and was still sharp. On the new you can see the mark, but you cannot feel it. the punch is now blunt. Maybe Sanye has changed the hardening process.



Good to know, thanks for doing the test.

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/30/2012 1:00 AM   
retransit



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Status: offline 		Anyone have a source for the exhaust headers? I had to cannibalize a couple from an O.S. but they are not of the same bend radius or length.

Bob

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/30/2012 3:16 AM   
Kmot



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Status: offline 		Try "Just Engines" in the UK. The part number is 400607.

If it were me, I would anneal some brass tube and make the header pipe myself.

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/30/2012 3:27 AM   
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Status: offline 		And what would you do for the flange at the end of the tube?

By the way, thanks for the info, Tom.

Bob

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/30/2012 7:45 AM   
Reverend



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kmot

Try ''Just Engines'' in the UK. The part number is 400607.

If it were me, I would anneal some brass tube and make the header pipe myself.


Tom, what drawing is that? I don't know of an exploded view with red on it?

FWIW, my drawings also have two shims drawn under the cylinder head but my P.H. Radial does not have any, the ASP from Australia has one. I dont think Sanye would be so foresightful as to anticipate the different nitro levels used in different countries so any ideas why this is?

Rev

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/30/2012 8:18 AM   
Eulboyington


 

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Status: offline 		Hello all gang !

Another overhaul of a SANYE F400 Radial, just two photos for little upgrade :

- Replacement ot the 4 original slave conrods pins by  quality stainless steel pins
- Make grooves on interior of  the front / back master rod rings for lubrication improve.


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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 11/30/2012 7:35 PM   
Kmot



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quote:

And what would you do for the flange at the end of the tube?


Use a tapered cone to start a small flare, then slip it into the nut and head and just start working it till it flanges out enough.

quote:

Tom, what drawing is that? I don't know of an exploded view with red on it?


PDF attached.

quote:

- Make grooves on interior of the front / back master rod rings for lubrication improve.


Olivier, that is a great idea and I am going to do that when I open up my engine.



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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 12/2/2012 5:57 AM   
Kmot



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quote:

ORIGINAL: jaav

Well I can say that if the case hardening is too hard I have a bottle of this good cleaner that will erase the hardness.

What was the stuff you used on your radial??

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 12/2/2012 6:58 AM   
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Status: offline 		Ok Here is the stuff I used..

ICT R-20 doo a Google and you can see.

Had one of those days today.. The only thing that didnt let me down was Rev's OS in P47... Have 3 birds with UC damage

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 12/2/2012 8:03 AM   
Reverend



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quote:

ORIGINAL: jaav

. The only thing that didnt let me down was Rev's OS in P47...


hey jaav,

glad to hear that told you its a dependable bugger. sorry bout the uc problems. working on he uc of my 190d9 too... sheared clean off

rev

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 12/2/2012 8:10 AM   
Reverend



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quote:

ORIGINAL: jaav

ICT R-20 doo a Google and you can see.




jaav, hope i dont sound stupid but did you thin it with water? I tried putting one of your old link pins in my phosphoric acid w/o thinning it. same thing happened... lots of holes and craters in the surface. I guess either way, the acid concentration was too high. does it say any % on the bottle?

rev

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RE: ASP/MAGNUM FS400AR Rebuild/Overhaul - 12/2/2012 5:26 PM   
Kmot



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Status: offline 		Thanks jaav.

Well, it certainly does not sound like it is dangerous stuff. They claim it is biodegradable and environmentally safe. Perhaps as Rev said, the dilution ratio with water is critical.

http://www.ictproducts.net/product_information/r20_corrosion_dissolver.html

I have used and highly recommend Evapo-Rust. No mixing is necessary, use it straight out of the bottle. I have left engine parts in it overnight and nothing bad has ever happened.

http://www.evapo-rust.com/



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