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Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/20/2007 12:55 AM   
nonstoprc



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Status: offline 		Just wonder if Triton charger can fully charge a 2 cell pack of VPX 1100mah cells, using the Lithium-ion battery option with charging voltage @ 7.4v and the max current @ 2.5A.

Has anybody done that?

J

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/20/2007 1:18 AM   
Red Scholefield



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quote:

ORIGINAL: nonstoprc

Just wonder if Triton charger can fully charge a 2 cell pack of VPX 1100mah cells, using the Lithium-ion battery option with charging voltage @ 7.4v and the max current @ 2.5A.

Has anybody done that?

J


No, it does not have the right voltage cut off for these cells, they are LiFePo (A123) and the charge should be terminated at 3.6 volts rather than the 4.2 for LiPo. I suppose if you watched the voltage and shut it down manually it would work, but that is kind of tedious.




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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/20/2007 1:31 AM   
nonstoprc



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Status: offline 		I recall Triton can also be set at 7.2v (instead of 7.4v). Will that allow the charger to stop charging at 2X3.6=7.2v?


Never mind. I think I got it.

< Message edited by nonstoprc -- 12/20/2007 1:33 AM >

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/20/2007 1:32 AM   
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Status: offline 		Non-stop, you can use a Triton charger on the "Nicad" setting if you use a "Dapter" by SLK Electronics. The Dapter allows you to use a Nicad capable charger to charge A123 cells. You can charge one A123 cell for every 2.5 Nicads your charger will charge. I sell these on my site.

Chad

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/20/2007 1:35 AM   
SinCityJets


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nonstoprc

I recall Triton can also be set at 7.2v (instead of 7.4v). Will that allow the charger to stop charging at 2X3.6=7.2v?



Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that. A 7.4v pack, actually gets charged up to 8.4v. A 7.2 volt pack gets charged up to 8.2 v. A 7.4v lithium pack is considered 7.4v "nominal" voltage, with a peak of 8.4. A123 cells are 3.3v "nominal" and 3.6v peak.

Big difference. The discharge curve on an A123 pack is FLAT, whereas the discahrge curve on a lipo is like a ski mountain.

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/20/2007 1:46 AM   
nonstoprc



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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/20/2007 3:11 AM   
everydayflyer



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quote:

ORIGINAL: nonstoprc

Just wonder if Triton charger can fully charge a 2 cell pack of VPX 1100mah cells, using the Lithium-ion battery option with charging voltage @ 7.4v and the max current @ 2.5A.

Has anybody done that?

J

Yes it will work.

I have charged A123 cells to over 4 volts for many cycles and they are still fine.
A123 Racing states they can be charged to 4.2 volts per cell without damage.
They recomend charging to 3.6 per cell for maximum life.


http://www.elektromodely.sk/A123/APR18650M1_2007-05.pdf

Use the 3.6 Li Ion setting and if it is convient stop the charge when they reach 3.7-3.8 volts per cell and if they go to 4.1 do not worry about it. They will be fine.

Recomended charge rate for the 1100s is up to 5A. I have charged mine at up to 8 amps. These are tuff cells.


Short history lesson.

Approx one year ago when many of us first started using the A123 Racing 2300 mAh cells there was only one official charger and that one was from A123 Racing for 2 and 3 cell packs only. Now there are many A123 compatible chargers however the manufactures used the recomemded for max. life charge to voltage. Many of us have found that this is really not necessary for most users and that a standard LiPoly charger will work just fine.
If you use and like the cells then by all means purchase a A123 compatible charger sometime but right now just use what you have and enjoy the cells.


See the second attachment in the first post here:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_6477096/tm.htm

Not max. voltage in legend 12.42 volts and that is a 3S pack.
Note that is a 2300 mAh pack and I would not recoment charging these 1100s at such a high rate.




Charles





< Message edited by everydayflyer -- 12/20/2007 3:34 AM >

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/20/2007 4:06 AM   
SinCityJets


 

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Status: offline 		Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. Treat your equipment right, and it will treat you right. Overcharging your batteries can be harmful to both the batteries and the equipment they occupy.

They are tough cells, however they also have a breaking point. Use an A123 specific charger or a device susch as a "Dapter".

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/20/2007 2:27 PM   
everydayflyer



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If you use and like the cells then by all means purchase a A123 compatible charger sometime but right now just use what you have and enjoy the cells.


Yes by all means by a proper charger such as a FMA Cell Pro 4 , Thunder Power 1010C or one of the many hyperion A123 compatible chargers.

I use a TP 1010C, a FMA Balance Pro HD, a Cell Pro4, a modified Astro Flight 109, a dapter from SLK ,one from Twiawian and my Zip Charger.

I have over a years experience with hese cells. I have packs with over 200 cycles on them .

I charge them at between 10 and 30 amps. I discharge them at 20 to 25 AQmp. average with burst to over 100 amps.

I have well over 700 flights using these cells in aircraft uop to 980 watts and over 200 runs on a RC Truck (brushless powered).


Charles

< Message edited by everydayflyer -- 12/20/2007 2:29 PM >

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/20/2007 6:11 PM   
everydayflyer



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Status: offline 		Just returned from another morning of flying. Cold for the South mid fourties overcast, breezy and misting rain.
Six more flights and Zip charges on my Mini Ultra Stick / 3S A123 DeWalt 2300 mAh cells pack.

Total of 263 flights , 240 Zip Charges.

Some can not read Graphs so here are the numbers from two of this mornings charges.
Both chargers were to between 11.4 and 11.7 volts and were between flights.

Battery at 9.57 volts
charged stated at 22 amps.
2 min. later charge at 16 amps. and 725 mAh into battery.
4 min. 150 mAh into battery
5 min. charge at 15 amps. and 1250 mAh into battery
6 min. charge at 13.5 amps. and 1725 mAh into battery
6 1/2 min. battery at 11.8 volts 1826 mAh into battery charge complete.


Another charge

4 min. 1200 mAh into battery
6 min. 1750 mAh into battery
6 1/2 min. 1886 mAh into battery 11.70 volts charge complete.

I understand these should be only charged to 3.6 X3=10.8 volts and that max. recomended charge rate is 10A and that for max. service they should be charged at 3A when not in a hurry.

The facts / experience say that most flyers would rather charge in 6-7 min. than taking 15-20 min. and that being able to fly a plane for 8 minutes out of every 15 min. without having to remove the battery or purchase an expensive charge is great.

As I posted I have many very nice expensive chargers however I use non of them for this 3S pack except when checking pack condition as in a CBA discharge test.

I do check the balance from time to time and it is never more than 0.030 out ofg balance after being charged.

Charles

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/22/2007 3:52 AM   
nonstoprc



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Status: offline 		Interesting data.

On using Triton charger, wil it work if some diodes are added to drop the charging voltage a little bit (say to 7.2v)? Look like without dropping the voltage will work. But if we want the preferred charging voltage?

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/22/2007 10:51 AM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nonstoprc

Interesting data.

On using Triton charger, wil it work if some diodes are added to drop the charging voltage a little bit (say to 7.2v)? Look like without dropping the voltage will work. But if we want the preferred charging voltage?

Most of chargers will not work when diode(s) are in line.
Cheapest way to use non-LiFe charger is charging thru LBA10-A balancer in A123 mode, it will cut charger from pack at 3.85V. You could purchase more powerfull charger later.

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/22/2007 11:47 AM   
nonstoprc



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Status: offline 		The balancer idea should work, although A123 cells are less prune to overcharge risk than liops. Why inline diode idea does not work in this case?

< Message edited by nonstoprc -- 12/22/2007 12:31 PM >

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/22/2007 1:30 PM   
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ORIGINAL: nonstoprc

The balancer idea should work, although A123 cells are less prune to overcharge risk than liops. Why inline diode idea does not work in this case?

I have no Triton to confirm exactly its behaviour, but most of chargers will try to confirm pack voltage first, and they will find no voltage at all (thru diode). Perhaps any big resistor in parallel to diode may help, but I am not sure.
Well, knowing that A123 pack can be charged at very high currents, You should consider also power looses over the diode - it will heat and may be destroyed. Thermal load is equal to lost power, amps multiplied by diode voltage drop, e.g. 0.5V * 5A = 2.5W and it will heat much over a small diode.
Such problem is exactly comming with charging transmiter battery, there is a diode and users have to bridge it to charge TX using charger. (I recall charger Jamara X-Peak 3 did charge thru diode, and it was considered rare.)

< Message edited by coro_sk -- 12/22/2007 1:33 PM >

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/22/2007 2:22 PM   
everydayflyer



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quote:

Just wonder if Triton charger can fully charge a 2 cell pack of VPX 1100mah cells, using the Lithium-ion battery option with charging voltage @ 7.4v and the max current @ 2.5A.

Has anybody done that?


The correct answer is YES!

I have charged A123 cells to 4.5 volts( by accident ,not recomended) each whitout major damage. A fellow electric flyer charged a single cell to 4.3 volts for more than 300 cycles without major damage.


Using the Li Ion mode and charging to 4.1 volts per cell for a few cycles is not going to be a big deal.


Charles

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/22/2007 4:44 PM   
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Status: offline 		Using a "Dapter" by SLK Electronics, will allow you to "properly" use a Triton charger to charge A123 cells to the proper voltage. Why risk it?

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/22/2007 6:31 PM   
everydayflyer



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Status: offline 		For those who wish to use a dapter the one is is half the price, handles more cells and higher charging rates and is simplier to use as it does A123 s only.


http://www.infinity-hobby.com/main/product_info.php?cPath=30_77&products_id=1877

Yes I have both and have use both many times.



Charles

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/22/2007 7:57 PM   
nonstoprc



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Status: offline 		Very cute design. Have you tried it with a VPX cell pack?

< Message edited by nonstoprc -- 12/22/2007 8:03 PM >

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/22/2007 11:41 PM   
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Status: offline 		Good idea, but I don't think it's half the price after international shipping. Where are they located??

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/22/2007 11:43 PM   
everydayflyer



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Status: offline 		Yes with an Astro Flight 112PK (Ni Charger) 5amps.


Charles

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/22/2007 11:45 PM   
SinCityJets


 

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Status: offline 		Actually, I answered my own question. Shipping was $14. I would have thought someone that bought one would have added that in!!

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 12/22/2007 11:48 PM   
everydayflyer



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Status: offline 		A post of mine from RC Groups.

Not an endorsement ,recomendation ,etc. just a statement of observations .

I purchased a A123 Dapoter from

http://www.infinity-hobby.com/main/...roducts_id=1877


Cost is very resonalbe IMO however the shiping is a bit steep ($14)unless one was making a group purchase or ordering other items also.

I have used mine to charge 3S , 4S and 5S A123 2300 mAh packs and also used it this morning to charge a 4S A123 1100 mAh 4 times. All of these charges by way of Astro Flight 112PK (very old Ni charger) at 5A.

Works well , terminates charge at pack voltage of 3.7 volts per cell and result in an approx. 90-95% state of charge. By reducing the charge rate near the end or restarting at a lower rate a full charge can be reached.

4S A1230 1100 charged at 5A 852 mAh in under 15 min. Restarted at 1.3A(lowest charger setting) and 44 mAh added in just under 2 min. placed one TP1010CC and only 9 mAh were added.

Second run at 5A . 933 mAh , restarted at 1.3A and 43 mAh added. 2 min. later pack at 14.2 volts which indicates a full charge.


This device work very similiar (same) as Dapter / formerly LiPo Dapter with a few exceptions. First it terminates at a slightly higher voltage,it does up to 12S (depending on chargers output) and at up to 20 amps. with cooling.
It only does A123 and seems to stay set cell count wise so I find it simplier to use


Charles

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 1/20/2008 1:46 PM   
ricardinho


 

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Status: offline 		i am charging 7.4 2400 lithium ion 2cells. i can only get it to 8.2. my lithium ion on the triton 2 will only do 7.2 not 7.4. now i can go to lipo at 7.4 and still only get 8.2. i think thats it. how can you get 8.4 from a ion. i think 8.2 is plenty but if i can get that little extra would be awesome. any info would be apreciated. thank you

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 1/20/2008 2:49 PM   
everydayflyer



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quote:

i am charging 7.4 2400 lithium ion 2cells.

This is not the3 General Battery and Charger Forum. This is the

A123 RACING Support Forum.

A123 Racing as in the name of the cells.


Triton set to Li Ion 3.6 per cell 3.6 / 7.2 /11.8 etc. charges to 4.1 per cell 4.1 / 8.2 /12.3 etc.

Li Ion nonimal volts per cell 3.6 ,charged voltage 4.1 per cell.

LiPoly nonomal volts per cell 3.7 charged voltage 4.2 per cell.


A123 Racing cells nonimal 3.3 per cell charged voltage 3.6 per cell.

Charles

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RE: Triton charger for 2 cell B&D VPX A123 pack - 1/20/2008 5:03 PM   
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Status: offline 		For what it worth, I use a Triton through the Infinity Hobby A123 Daptor to charge my VPX packs. (I have both 2 cell packs for my gasser servos and ignition and a 4 cell that I use to power my glow starter). I have not experienced any problems with this setup.

I use the Triton on NICAD Auto and it works very well. The Daptor is very easy to use. I was amazed at how quickly mine arrived from Tiawan---about 4 days. It was $34 with shipping.

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