RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics

RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics
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RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 12/28/2007 1:25:44 AM

Posts: 96
Joined: 11/20/2006
From: Gladstone, OR, USA
Status: offline

Solo,

I was kidding a little too about the baseball diamond but the realitiy is a Trex 450 needs a lot of room and a decent figure 8 can take up half a football field. The HBK2 is smaller than the Trex and uses less room and the Blade CP Pro is smaller then the HBK2 and uses less space as well. One of the things I like about the King 2 is it can still be flown in a fairly small area where-as the Trex 450 does require more space. You can not compare the Trex to the K2 for quality and performance but that does not mean that buying the more expensive heli is the better option. I would recommend the King 2 as the next stepping stone to anyone that has mastered the CX2. I would not recommend the Blade CP Pro to anyone lookiing to move up from a CX2. The CP Pro is very hard to fly proabably much like the unit you are learning on. However if you can learn to fly a spazy little tail rotor heli you will have no problems flying a big bird. Did I just say "big bird"?

(in reply to soloboss)

RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 12/28/2007 2:07:40 AM

Posts: 3591
Joined: 5/3/2006
From: Greenwood, IN, USA
Status: offline

Soloboss,

Per your request, attached below is the PM I sent ya.

Hi Fellas,

There will always be a debate on which heli is better. It's will be the same for any hobby. This has that and that one doesn't. Hmmm, guess the bottom line is how BIG is your wallet and what is your long range goal. Money talks bullsh$t walks. With that aside, down to business. No offense towards anyone.

I'v been flying the heli for about 2 1/2 years now. I've had about 11 helis, never really kept track. But, here's a few: Blade CX, Blade CX2, Blade CP, Blade CP Pro, Raptor G2, Falcon 3D, TREX 450, HBK2 and my latest big a$$ heli is the LOGO 10 (4 foot main blades).

The Logo 10 is still in the build process. The Trex450 and the HBK2 are similar in size, and the HBK2 has the controllability that the Trex has.. The Blade Series and the others I've had fall short of the performance. One thing that your have to keep in mind is that the SET-UP of the Heli is imperitive, if it's not, you'll be fighting it and scatching your head all day long. Take time to learn and understand how to set the heli up. There are tons of helpful websites with detail steps and photos. Just Goggle It. I fly my HBK2 in the house all the time, when weather isn't up to par.

Depending on your skill level, a jump from coaxial helis to a HBK2 isn't bad at all. Always remember Set-Up. I do recommend training gear at first and check out Radd's. Most of ya are aware of Radds. Also, don't under estimate your ability, keep driving ahead.

I know there will be some debates here, but there always will be.

See Pictures,

Dave / Choppersrule
======================================================================================
Soloboss,
If you're wanting to move up a tad. I'd highly recommend the Honey Bee King 2. I truly think you're fighting yourself on the controls.
It only takes about 1/8 or 1/4 inches to make corrections. Unless your heading for a tree, then let it rip.

Here's a site for the HBK2, brushless set up. Don't go any other way. The Brushed motors for the HBK2 Suck. Been flying mine for 7 months and love it to death.

Link: http://jaghobbies.com/rc_planes/ek1h-e016a_cart.htm I've dealt with this site for months, he is reliable and quick in shipping.
Look for the brushless, 3800kv motor. Oh, get some extra blades too.

Cost $209 plus about $15 for shipping. You know me, I would'nt stear ya wrong. Take it slow and do the Radd's School with it. Opps, do the training gear thing too, if your not comfortable with it. Has a ton of power. Just a tad smaller than a Trex 450.

Again, take 'er slow and have a good time my friend,

Dave / Choppersrule

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< Message edited by choppersrule -- 12/28/2007 2:18:46 AM >

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RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 12/28/2007 5:15:05 AM

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Joined: 10/21/2006
From: Calgary, AB, CANADA
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I find it amazing with this hobby how frustration can kill and small successes thrill to no end. After some limited success and questioning my abilities I once again found myself pondering my choice in hobbies. Low and behold my collective brother Soloboss was or is having similar issues. My flight time with my CX2 has taught me when all else fails go back to the simple basics of setup setup setup. You would think after all these months of flying I would take the time to really go through my new heli and ensure all was correct. Well once again the kid in me took over and I rushed to get into the air...only to be met with failure and very limited success.
So the old pilot in me took over tonight, I consulted the hallowed pages of these very forums, chatted with members of the FP club and went about "righting" my heli. Typical result, success followed by more success! Now knowing Soloboss the way that we all do I would say he just may have an issue with something on his F40. Solo you are afterall the setup KING! If you are having flight issues it maybe something going south on your bird. I have not noticed any strange wanderings with mine. It pretty much goes where I want it to unless of course I don't stay on top of her....which is alot while still in the learning curve.
As we have all read these heli's are known for bad electrics. It could just be possible you have a servo glitching or even a 4in1 starting to go south. With mine once she is out of her own rotor wash she is a pretty stable machine.
My gut tells me you have electrics going south, could be the tx, or it could be the 4in1. If it was a servo one would think it would always be the same servo with the same result. One method of fixing it would be to goto an Eflite CP 3in1 then get the DX7 with an AR6000 rx. Pricey fix for a budget heli, then again now you have the tx to move to bigger alot bigger machines.
Too bad we aren't closer as I would love to be able to see what's happening with the F40 and have you fly the #4 to see if it is for sure pilot or machine. Maybe we need to test the Soloboss for glitching, you don't have your 4in1 going south do you?

< Message edited by stump3r -- 12/28/2007 5:27:25 AM >

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CX2, Walkera#4 FP, HBKII, CX450SEV2, DX7

(in reply to choppersrule)

RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 12/28/2007 1:31:27 PM

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Joined: 8/18/2007
From: Amsterdam, NETHERLANDS
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Hahaha Stump! Great one on the 4in1!

Good to see i'm not the only one

.

But as Dave justly stated, it's indeed all about setup as i'm experiencing now. Yesterday i had to massively trim both aileron and elev (as my big *ss tailservo is a fast fatty) to let me return the stick to center. This morning i've re-aligned the swash (with the swashleveler Michael supplied, cant thank him enough for his pro-active advice/help!) and what i thought to be all level (used the tool before), was indeed quite a bit off. So i patiently leveled the swash out on the 3 pitch points and VOILA!

But i'm with Stump on thinking it's gonna be something electronic, because the way i know you, the mechanics will all be spot on. Although it might not be something 'inside' the TX/RX, it might as well be something external. Maybe some Faraday-effects are causing the twitch? Or you're RX-antenna is creating it's own magnetic field (maybe you've coiled it around a metal rod?), which shouldn't be possible as there is hardly any current going through, but you never know right? Have you tried wrapping it around both the skids?

I'm not gonna give you any advice on which heli to buy, as i'm prejudice/bias towards my HDX. I'm really lovin' it, but it's also about what you're willing to spend. As you've said earlier; at first you've tried to keep your CX the best it gets with stock parts, but now you've taken the plunge to invest in Xtreme-parts. You're liking the looks, but hating the weight right? That might well be a consideration for your new heli: what will you be doing with it (even in the very long run?). I thought of FP at first, but i decided not to invest in the 'middle' (no offense, i think i'd love an FP!) and save up for the CP with 'bling'... I too think it's a major step (either way) and serious money, so don't rush any descisions.

BTW; What if there was a ARTF Blade 400 like, with everything on it, without the TX (maybe even RX)?! That would be a smart step for E-Flite IMO, as the TX that comes with the 400 is not necessary for some of us, but we do like the heli. As Stump said, investing in a 'big' TX (my first big purchase after the CX2) is a good thing too... It gives you freedom of choice for ARF models, not limits you to one brand of heli (of course it does limit the choise of RX), but on the other hand it does withhold you (me at least) from RTF models... Hmmm, this didn't clear anything up i guess...

Got to go know, just found out i forgot to loctite the screws in my anti-rotation bearing

. For me, most failures are human failures, which i dont think is the situation with your twitching FP Soloboss (despite my disrespectful and way out of line comment

).

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Be like a CX2 blade; flexible as wax, sharp as a razorblade.

(in reply to stump3r)

RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 12/28/2007 7:01:15 PM

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Joined: 9/17/2006
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
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OK, I'm going through the heli again in more detail this time.
First - Blade Balance. I pulled a new pair out and sanded the trailing edge until the balance is excellent. And by golly wouldn't you know it? - the two blades even weigh the same on the scale. So step 1 is good enough for me.

Second - flybar paddles. I have read the book and lots of posts, but a trusted source (EF Sabre flyer) says that the heli responds better with just a bit of positive pitch on the paddles. They have to be even and balanced, but test results looking at just the responsiveness of the heli shows the flight to be more stable with a touch of positive pitch. How much? I tried to get a good photo of the paddle from the end but there is so much business in the photo it's hard to see. That blurr in the foreground is the paddle. If someone needs a good shot I'll use manual focus and repost it.

Third - dynamic true. I checked the shaft and bearings and flybar balance and everything at once by just spinning the rotor assembly without the blades. I spun it at several rpm looking for harmonics. It felt smooth, so I floated the heli in a pan of water and spun it up looking for any water ripples. It does create just a bit of ripple, and I'd guess the frequency to be below gear mesh, so I guess I'll have to settle for pretty good. Perfect has to wait for another day.

Fourth - Glitching. I pulled the Tx antenna out about a foot - I don't need much range. Then I powered up the heli. Nothing. I walked around the heli at about 4 feet away. Nothing. I spun the motor up by leaving the lever down and pushing the throttle trim to max just to generate some electrical karma. Nothing. Then I ran the motors up using the throttle in the normal manner and I worked the servos slowly through the first quarter of their range in all directions. I can see an occasional errant movement, but it is so quick that it doesn't upset the flybar 'plate'. And what I have seen flying in the garage is a far longer duration spastic movement than a glitch. I'm seriously thinking it's eddy currents from rotor wash.

Fifth - swash plate level trim. I adjusted the linkages so the swash looked level. Then I think I came up with a legitimate test. If the swash is level, the flybar should spin parallel to the ground. Right? I measured the distance from the table top to the center of the flybar rod and marked the wall with painter's tape. Then I used a level to get the tape at the correct height and level bubble. I know that the bubble is within 0.2° and I'll live with that for now. Anyhow, the photo below showing the side view of the flybar with the tape behind is actually a stop action shot. The photo was taken with the throttle at 1/4 speed. What you see is the level of the flybar at speed. Then I turned the heli 90° so I could check the dynamic level from the front, then the other side and then the back. At speed, with the trims centered, the plate is level. And I think that's what we are looking for.
Curiously, when I thought that I had the swash level, the dynamic test showed that the links needed to be turned 3 turns at the front and 7 turns at the side link. That's one heck of an error.

What have I missed? I'll get some lunch and then go to the garage again for a test.

Oh, for what it's worth, I did try to flatten the blades for more head speed. I got 'em so flat there's no lift at all. They just make a cone and the heli sits on the table. And boiling didn't restore them. Dead blades. The price of knowledge. I'm thinking that the weight of the hei with super skids has my headspeed up so I won't mess with that any more. And what's any body got for weight on this heli? I'm looking at 245.7 g without battery.

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< Message edited by soloboss -- 12/28/2007 7:13:00 PM >

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Soloboss
If everyone''s thinking alike, then somebody isn''t thinking . . . G. Patton

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RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 12/28/2007 9:54:37 PM

Posts: 1172
Joined: 9/15/2007
From: SEQUIM, WA, USA
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Here's something I want to share in which I also put in another thread. It's mainly directed to the new guys who want to see a stability test. I first picked up a TX in May, 8 months ago going from RC-Cars. It was a birthday gift from my father. We were in the LHS and he said pick out another car or something...Thinking, I thought well sweet...! Only problem, every model they had, I already owned...Lol..So as I was looking around, one of the workers of the LHS was outside the doors and hovering a CP-Pro for a customer...I went outside to witness such a killer thing that I wanted to do. Hearing of the challenges about helicopters, I still thought whatever, no prob...I learn quick at what I do, and have superb reflexes...Yeah right...Brought that bad boy home, and realized....Whew that Bas#ta@d made it look easy...LMAO..!

For three months therafter, with no sim and no help of just figuring things on my own, I filmed every flight of 5 hours worth averaging 10 minutes a flight...Only tail in, and just trying to even keep it stable. At the time I knew nothing about " SET-UP ", or anything for that matter...

Then there came a time where it sat for a month in August as I discovered the CX2 as my friend who also couldn't fly the CP-Pro just bought the CX2 and was flying all over the place...! Crap..! That's sweet I thought, and it still is as I love flying that thing around ,it has given me coordination assistance with the controls on the TX.

September came and I discovered RCU...To this day, I don't think I've slept since...Lol.. I've read much more than I've posted. Everyone has taught me soooooo much, and now my learning has advanced by 100 times...Just two weeks ago, I could barely now start to try and move the CPP around the yard a little. Three weeks ago, I was still in "Tail-In Mode"...The video below is my best one yet for attempting this moving around and that was just a few days ago.

I just got a Trex 450 SA and have now burned 14 packs into it...All of them mainly hovering, and just making sure nothing is going to fly off and hit me in the tooth or something...Lol.. Today I had a break in the weather, and since my CX2 was down for 2 broken blades, that I haven't gotten to yet, (Hard to break away from RCU) and the CPP getting a new main-shaft and spindle currently in front of me from yesterdays forward attempts, I looked over at the Trex, and thought....Well I'll go do a hover in it I suppose...

The hover turned out to be slow forward flight that I can't even really do with the CPP in which I'am sooooo used to flying as my main heli, and properly set-up perfectly to the tee...The Trex, not even being all the way set-up, as I've been pre-occupied with other things. The blades are not balanced yet, the DX-7 is a nightmare, but I'am slowing getting it, so there is a few settings programmed but not much to admit to say that I know what I'am doing with it...LMAO..And so the video below of todays flight with the Trex shows how stable it is compared to the CPP video also taken a few days ago with the same pilot, in control of the heli's...

My yard is pretty small, so as my research has proven, I'am also getting an HBK2 as my next heli in time for sure without a doubt. With the brushless, and a few small mods like with the tail belt I'll be pleased, for it will fill the void between the CPP and the Trex...

All I can say is the Trex, is incredibly stable and I was running the 315 CF mains at the time of the vid. Tonight I'am putting on the stock 325mm sym Align Pro woodies back on, and that will make it even more stable, as I don't need the 315mm ones on right now as 3-D is out of the picture for quite sometime...Lol..

Keep in mind, it takes everything in my power to keep the CPP under any kind of control. Where as with the Trex, minimal control was all it took to keep it in the air......FYI...

Hope this helps some new guys in seeing the diff in two different flying characteristics of two different heli's.....Have fun guy's...!

CPP Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1EXWygepD8

Trex 450 SA Video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULwp61xOnaE

Take care,

-- Jeff

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I Wish I Never Discovered RCU........................Haven't Slept Since.............

(in reply to soloboss)

RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 12/28/2007 11:45:58 PM

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Joined: 5/8/2007
From: , USA
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When i jumped up to my CP+ after only flying a CX2 previously it was much easier to fly forward than it was to hold a perfect steady hover. Once i could fly it well i started working on holding a good hover and it became much easier to me. I also added the G90 gyro about a month ago and that made a huge improvement in keeping orientation with throttle changes.

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RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 12/28/2007 11:48:55 PM

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Joined: 5/3/2006
From: Greenwood, IN, USA
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J-MICHAEL,

Excellent write up of your experiences and dedication to the helis. I've seen all the videos that you have posted on RCU. And the short 8 months you have made progress of leaps and bounds. Take it from the ole Chopper here, that in less than one year, you'll be going inverted.

You've got the drive.

To All:

As mentioned in an early post, SET-UP is key, electronics kinda do what they want! Especially when using the stock systems that come with RTF birds. Regardless of make or model. My 2 years of experience with the RTF birds is that the E-sky systems seem to work the best for me. Think long term and what your goals are, then the best investment as you've heard in alot of posts, upgrade to programmable radio. DX7 is the hottest thing going right now. Futaba has one, but haven't heard to much about it at all.

Until you feel very comfortable with the heli and your flying ability, I'd suggest that you keep the heli, STOCK from the factory and replace parts when needed. You're wasting alot of money on BLINGS that won't help you learn to fly. You fly the heli, the blings don't.

I have a dear friend in CANADA, that's a genius with helis. He told me a year ago about the keeping things stock. He's able to do small figure 8's in his living room, NOT with a coaxial bird, WITH a single rotor cppm heli. My friend works for a company that works on Nuclear Fusion systems and ready for this.............."Anti-Matter". Star Trek here we come.

Take care guys and learn all you can,

Dave / Choppersrule

< Message edited by choppersrule -- 12/29/2007 12:03:12 AM >

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RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 12/29/2007 12:23:13 AM

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Joined: 9/15/2007
From: SEQUIM, WA, USA
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Dave--

Thank-you...

It got me hopeful flying the Trex today, as yesterday I tried to mimic the CPP video above and couldn't hardly...Lol.. I broke one woodie, bent main shaft, spindle, retaining pin and that was only about 2-3' above the grass in the lawn...Doesn't take much...Lol.. Have lots of spare parts though, so as soon as I can find the control to pull away from RCU, then I can put things back in order ! Then I go out with that Trex, and wow, It didn't have that "Tippy" effect...It stayed level and secure in flight and hover. Hardly any control was required compared to the CPP, or what I'am starting to think also the Falcon 3-D like Shane and Mark are struggling with a little at the moment...

Have a good one Chief......

-- Jeff

_____________________________

I Wish I Never Discovered RCU........................Haven't Slept Since.............

(in reply to choppersrule)

RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 12/29/2007 12:46:55 AM

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Joined: 9/17/2006
From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
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Great post J-Michael. Again, more good information and stuff to ponder. This is turning into a great thread for the guys on the fence looking for 'What's next?", the guys like me wondering "What's next?" as well as the guys who have successfully made the transition and are here to tell us how they did it. It just doesn't get any better.

So you are running the trex and NEXT you are getting the HB belt tail? I'm not even going to ask why.

A minor correction - Shane and I are running the Falcon 40 - fixed pitch, not the Falcon 3D. That would make a difference.

NOW I NEED HELP AGAIN
If you go to the post (#30 I think) that talks about the detailed set up routine I went through I found another oddity. I don't know what I'm talking about again, so someone who knows needs to help me out here.
Recall that I used a tape on the wall that is parallel to my work table and level within zero bubble on my level. And there is a photo showing that the flybar is trimmed so the flybar runs a true level when it is spinning. I figured that was my goal.
Then I finished assembling the heli and it's marginally better, but not enough to mention. So I put it back on the bench and spun it up looking at the heli from the back - tail in. I was looking at the flybar compared to the stripe on the wall. The flybar is level as I set it, BUT THE ROTOR IS NOT LEVEL AT ALL!! I taped the heli down to the bench and spun up to half throttle so the rotor was lifting and the flybar is dead level but the rotor is tilted 3° to 5° to the right. So with the heli trimmed as well as I can get it, the rotor will lift the heli to the right. That's not right - is it? If the swash drives the flybar and I'm driving the swash, how the heck does the rotor get tilted? The swash looks fine and I don't find anything loose.
A LITTLE HELP WOULD BE GOOD RIGHT ABOUT NOW I'm really confused.

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Soloboss
If everyone''s thinking alike, then somebody isn''t thinking . . . G. Patton

(in reply to J-MICHAEL)

RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 12/29/2007 1:44:51 AM