RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics  
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RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 2/1/2008 6:41:54 PM   
stump3r



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From: Calgary, AB, CANADA
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quote:

I set-up my heli without the flybar weights, and using the longer arms on the swash (quicker response) to improve response. My logic (if it seems logical) being a learning pilot doesn't know what to expect from the sinlgle rotor an by the time he/she recognizes needed correction the input will be just that much farther behind with sluggish response??? I have no idea if that makes any sense since I have no basis for comparison. What do you guys think???


I did this very thing almost right out of the box. I have my CX2 fine tuned to be super touchy on the sticks. That lack of response on the #4 drove me nuts, so I did the same thing I set up the #4 to be as sensitive as I could get her. It wasn't a night and day difference but it was alot better. For the first little while it just got me into trouble faster however once you "get it" it's like riding a bike. The thing that I struggled with the hardest was remembering small inputs and back to center. So if she is drifting right, input enough left aileron to get her to move and return the stick to center. With this bird you will be constantly making small adjustments with the stick. Unlike the CX2 where you will keep inputting to get the desired response. As I have now learned ensure your cog is spot on. A little nose heavy or a little tail heavy can make a huge difference in handling. Try to get it so the bird hangs perfectly level when holding the flybar. Other than that just keep flying, you will get it.

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Life is tough. It''s even tougher when your stupid! - John Wayne
CX2, FourKing FP, CX450SEV2, DX7

(in reply to RMG2)
       Post #: 201

RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 2/1/2008 7:18:34 PM   
RMG2


 

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From: Private, OR, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: stump3r

quote:

I set-up my heli without the flybar weights, and using the longer arms on the swash (quicker response) to improve response. My logic (if it seems logical) being a learning pilot doesn't know what to expect from the sinlgle rotor an by the time he/she recognizes needed correction the input will be just that much farther behind with sluggish response??? I have no idea if that makes any sense since I have no basis for comparison. What do you guys think???


I did this very thing almost right out of the box. I have my CX2 fine tuned to be super touchy on the sticks. That lack of response on the #4 drove me nuts, so I did the same thing I set up the #4 to be as sensitive as I could get her. It wasn't a night and day difference but it was alot better. For the first little while it just got me into trouble faster however once you "get it" it's like riding a bike. The thing that I struggled with the hardest was remembering small inputs and back to center. So if she is drifting right, input enough left aileron to get her to move and return the stick to center. With this bird you will be constantly making small adjustments with the stick. Unlike the CX2 where you will keep inputting to get the desired response. As I have now learned ensure your cog is spot on. A little nose heavy or a little tail heavy can make a huge difference in handling. Try to get it so the bird hangs perfectly level when holding the flybar. Other than that just keep flying, you will get it.


Very encouraging thanks! That's what I needed, "pep-talk"

I can't practice with it today because of traffic in the house so we will get back after it soon! I'll have to fly the CX2 around today as I can avoid contact with human flesh flying this one My son and I are talking about building some PVC pylons for the living room and have a race or two

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       Post #: 202

RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 2/1/2008 8:43:57 PM   
xyster101


 

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I left my weights on. It does sometimes take a half second longer to do something, so maybe I will use the longer arms. I have found that I just push the stick all the way to a lock position until just before the heli starts to move, then back off. Got her back together today and flew a pack in the garage. I was all over the place. sigh. Then the CX was doing the TBE for no reason. Replaced a ton of parts and still did it. Went to get my camera to film it and then it flew great. Who knows.

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       Post #: 203

RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 2/1/2008 9:56:52 PM   
soloboss


 

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From: Fort Wayne, IN, USA
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I do have the weights on my flybar. That gives me the response that I expect from stick inputs.
I am using the longer posts for quicker response like you. I used the same logic as you. Yes, this helicopter is way different than the CX, but when it moves 'a direction', I do know what to do about it. I do have the ability to move the sticks to command very minor inputs. But when I need a major move to save my bacon, I expect the heli to respond. The mushy / slow control that was recommended for a new pilot cost me several parts.
I agree with your logic.

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Soloboss
If everyone''s thinking alike, then somebody isn''t thinking. George Patton

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       Post #: 204

RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 2/1/2008 11:28:36 PM   
RMG2


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: soloboss

I do have the weights on my flybar. That gives me the response that I expect from stick inputs.
I am using the longer posts for quicker response like you. I used the same logic as you. Yes, this helicopter is way different than the CX, but when it moves 'a direction', I do know what to do about it. I do have the ability to move the sticks to command very minor inputs. But when I need a major move to save my bacon, I expect the heli to respond. The mushy / slow control that was recommended for a new pilot cost me several parts.
I agree with your logic.


Okay, I am gonna follow your lead and split the difference. I'll keep the long swash arms and put the weights back on. I love experimenting with stuff, it's my favorite part of a new hobby/sport

(in reply to soloboss)
       Post #: 205

RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 2/2/2008 12:20:18 AM   
soloboss


 

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On the day that you are done experimenting and you actually can rightfully claim the ability to fly the helicopter, what's next? To fly it.
Personally, I have way more fun learning than doing. Learning is exploration and discovery and teaching / learning / sharing with others. Doing is . . . like a job! Yikes!!

I've tried cutting the tips from the blades to reduce lift which requires more head speed which adds stability. Nice thought, but the motor doesn't run fast enough to get the job done. Lost those blades. Then I tried ironing the blades to reduce the curve which reduces lift which requires increased head speed . . . but I smashed the blades flat. I tried the trick of boiling the blades with the hope that the blades would return to their original shape. That works with eflight stock blades. Not with Exceed Falcon 40 blades. More blades in the trash.

I found that the 4 in 1 of the Walkera #4 has gain and proportional controls for the tail motor. My Falcon does not. EF Sabre? I don't know. Is it a big deal? Don't know that either. I seem to have less glitching than the other two, or I complain less .

I found that the super skids are great but I recommend the performance version of the skids. Less cool factor, better balance. And with the fp machine we are learning to fly, not impress the neighbors.

Training gear is OK for a while. I actually didn't fly this thing until I took the training balls off.

One more thing. I noted that I would give my opinion of how to go about the learning to fly thing via a PM only. The eflight folks are all grown up and they don't jump in here anyhow, so I'll unload my opinion here and now.

FOR A NEW FLIER LOOKING FOR THE WAY TO GET INTO THE AIR;
1) Skip the coaxial helis altogether
2) Get a fixed pitch heli. Get one supported by your local hobby shop for parts and advice.
3) Stay in touch with the forum and try to connect with someone at your stage of development with a similar helicopter. It's way more fun that way.
4) Get a low priced sim. My Falcon 40 came with a cord for a sim. I downloaded Clearview for $40. To run the sim, pull the crystal out of the tx unit so you don't fry the guts with the antenna down, get a set of rechargable batteries for the tx so you don't go broke using the sim. Practice doing everything on the sim. If you can't control the sim, you can't control the heli.
5) PAY FOR INSTRUCTION. Go to the LHS and ask about lessons and setup. They will set up the fp heli and in a couple of hours they will have you flying it. Stupidly simple idea. For about $20 you get a huge jump on the game.
6) When you are ready, get a CP machine. DON'T GET ONE THAT IS DESCRIBED AS HARD TO FLY. There are models out there that have earned the reputation for being stable and affordable with reasonable repair costs. The more you spend the better the helicopter. Or that's how it's supposed to work. There are very, very good RTF helis available for about $200, including radio gear and LiPO and Brushless. I have more than that in my eflight CX.,

SO, there's my plan. Given the chance to do it all again, that's what I'd do. The only problem with that plan is that without my CX, I would have missed this entire forum. That would be a huge loss. This forum has become a significant part of my life and I've met some really great folks on here.

Keep playing and having fun. And don't hurry, there's no rush. And keep kids, pets, plants and flat panel tv's away from the left side of the heli.
Soloboss

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Soloboss
If everyone''s thinking alike, then somebody isn''t thinking. George Patton

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RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 2/2/2008 3:37:21 AM   
gene465



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From: Milton, FL, USA
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Sorry for jumping right back in but getting frustrated at this point! I regret going from the CX2 to the Blade CP/Pro! I am having the worst time just trying to get either one of these birds up and adjusted for hover! Guess I really should have went to a FP bird first. If it is not one thing it is another with these blades both are brushless and just getting the gyro and pitch set for proper hover is proving to be a bear! I am thinking I need to get the Trex450 ready to go(I aquired it in trade) I am thinking of ditching the Blade CPs and getting a honey bee or equivelant or should I just go with the Honey bee king2? Any thoughts on which way to go? I spend alot of time on my sim Realflight 3.5 and still fly my CX2 every chance I get bet getting past the CX2 and getting a single rotor bird to hover is proving to be taxing! I really enjoy these helis but just getting a bit frustrated at this point! Maybe I just need to vent a bit! lol Thanks Gene

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RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 2/2/2008 5:11:27 AM   
soloboss


 

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I'll tell you from personal experience that a good vent is worth every word.
For anyone with a CX / CX2 that is flying it and enjoying it - DON'T get rid of it on my say-so. They are really cool little birds. The thoughts I posted are what I think would be the fastest, least costly and least frustrating way into RC helicopter.
Some get into this without coming to terms with the fact that RC helicopter is the most challenging of the RC toys. There's no way around that part. These buggers are tough for a lot of us. Others have little difficulty once they get the basics. I guess some of us have better thumbs than others.

I started with a Blade CP. I couldn't fly it. I took it to the LHS and the guru made adjustments and flew it in the store. He lifted it off the repair counter and flew it in an area about 3 feet X 5 feet, then proclaimed it a fit machine. I paid him $10. Then I went home a broke 3 more sets of woodies. I sold the CP and got the CX. A year and many RC Universe forum friends later, I'm into the fixed pitch.
From the posts, it seems that those who are truly gifted find the Blade CP and CPP to be a lot of fun. Most of the rest of us find the Blades to be a real handful and more frustration than fun. As I got deeper into this single rotor stuff, I found a buddy with a near identical fixed pitch heli who is at the same level of frustration / inability to fly as me. The buddy system is good. We progressed together and today we are both hovering the single rotor fixed pitch in our living rooms. And we are looking to get our first Collective Pitch helis.

About the collective pitch machines; I think that a guy would do fine to go immediately into a collective pitch helicopter - IF he has someone to get it set up and keep it set up after crashes and IF he has an instructor for a couple of hours to keep him from trashing it immediately. Just the cost of blades can run $6 to $10 every time a blade touches anything!

I'm not into dumping on the Eflight Blade series. After the hours of fun I've had, that would be unfair. On the other hand, if you are trying to learn single rotor on a CP Pro you'll go crazy. The Trex will be far easier to fly than the Blade but the cost of repair when you screw up (and of course you will screw up) can break the bank. At this juncture you don't know how to set up a collective pitch and that's just more frustration.

If you have a local shop that sells a good fixed pitch, get one. If not, shop online starting with the names you hear and you know you can trust. I'm going to throw the names Walkera #4, Esky and Michael at US Hobby Supply out there as known good stuff backed by a good supplier. I'm sure there are others who are premium sellers also, but most are west coast sellers. I get stuff from Michael in two days by priority mail and that works for me.
Anyhow, before I knew about all this, I bought an Exceed Falcon 40 fixed pitch from a west coast seller. It cost $85 + delivery. It's identical to the Walkera #4 and the EF Sabre. My LHS does not carry new fixed pitch of any kind, but they do carry generic tail rotors than work fine, Blade CP landing gear fits my heli, I run on my CX LiPO battery packs from Xtreme. Boom material is common CF tubing or get a CP boom. The main motor and tail motor from a Blade CP work better in my Falcon than the original equipment. Servos are stock items and there are several brands of micro servos that work fine for under $15. I get blades for the Falcon a couple of sets at a time, but they are really rugged and take hit after hit without problems. Cold makes them brittle and that's a problem for me, not so much for you. These FP helis are simple to set up and cheap to maintain. They DO NOT fly themselves and the skills you build learning to control the fp helis does translate directly to the cp helis. They are not as stable as a good cp heli and are more challenging to fly, but it's a trainer. I'm told that once you master the fp helicopter, a good cp heli (like your Trex) will be easier to fly than the fp. The purpose of the fp is to transition you into single rotor with less frustration and fiscal damage. We want you to have fun, not quit out of frustration. And when you master the fp, sell it to the next newbie looking to make the leap. I'll keep mine as in indoor flier through the long winter season.

I hope something in here make sense to you. Of course anyone with other thoughts will post their opinions here. That's the wonder of this Collective brain.

Good luck, have fun and don't hesitate to post as you work through this!
Soloboss

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Soloboss
If everyone''s thinking alike, then somebody isn''t thinking. George Patton

(in reply to gene465)
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RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 2/2/2008 5:28:15 AM   
stump3r



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From: Calgary, AB, CANADA
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Gene I had several words of wisdom for you, however my good friend Soloboss has pretty much covered it all. The one thing I will touch on again is, if you can get someone to setup your heli and ensure it's sitting at zero trim, you will have a much better chance of catching it and actually hovering it. I was fortunate enough to have a flying buddy just a short drive away. One afternoon together and a few little tweaks to my bird, there I was holding my first hover and getting it tighter and tighter. I still don't know if it was the setup or just a friend giving me little pointers as I flew. All in all don't let the frustration eat at you. Come here and vent and maybe we can come up with a solution or a tweak that just be what it takes to find the all elusive hover. To answer your other question, yes a Trex is a great jump if you have the funds, a cheaper alternative is a CopterX or any of the Esky birds like the Honey Bee King II or the bigger Belt CP are all fine machines capable of stable hovers almost right out of the box. Or as Solo suggested sell off the CP's and get a FP machine. Master it then step up to the bigger collective pitches list above. Keep at it Gene and remember we are always here if you need us.

_____________________________

Life is tough. It''s even tougher when your stupid! - John Wayne
CX2, FourKing FP, CX450SEV2, DX7

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RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 2/2/2008 5:33:24 AM   
evdreamer


 

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I agree with you. A buddy system would be the way to go. But when I was starting out I didn't know about any flying clubs or RCU. So it was quite difficult for me to start out. And my LHS didn't have any fixed pitch helicopters only Blade CX and Blade CP's. But then I started to get ok at it then discovered RCU and everything just fell together.

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Since I started this hobby money seems to keep disappearing. :)
T-Rex 450SEV2, Gaui 200 SD

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RE: Struggling with Single Rotor basics - 2/2/2008 5:27:41 PM   
xyster101


 

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I disagree with you solo. I think the CX taught me the coordinates of the heli set up first. It taught me how to fly tail, side and nose in which has saved me a few times on the FP. It has also taught me throttle control and how to use small inputs compared to the lock to lock stick movements I use on my RC Truck. Granted a sim can do all that too, but a sim is not good at teaching wind and breeze control. A CX with the heat on or a slight breeze (or fan) is good practice too.

The rest is great. NEVER get a stupid Blade CP, those things are like trying to control a kindergarten kid on crack! They are just so unstable from what everyone says.

My FP bird is ok, I have trouble controlling the height. I add throttle and it takes a few seconds for the rotor to spin up and then the heli goes up at which point i back off and it takes a few seconds for the rotor to slow. I feel like I am really chasing the rotor. Anyway I flew outside today really high. I figure if I am 2 mistakes up I can save it before it hits. It works good, except the wind is a bit different up there at times. The rule with airplanes (which I have only flown, never landed) is to be 5 mistakes up, at that height I can't see the FP machine.

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