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RE: Is the AMA forum a battleground? - 1/2/2008 3:04:36 AM   
Hossfly



Posts: 3748
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: New Caney, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Removed by poster. RC not mentioned.

< Message edited by Hossfly -- 1/4/2008 5:39:06 PM >

_____________________________

Horrace Cain.
AMA Life L-93, Leader and CD for 45 years

The only source of knowledge is experience. Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school. Albert Einstein

(in reply to Stickbuilder)
       Post #: 76

RE: Is the AMA forum a battleground? - 1/2/2008 3:32:16 AM   
littlecrankshaf



Posts: 2104
Joined: 12/9/2001
From: here
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hossfly




The poster stated, "And we all know who you're talking about Mark, you've made no real attempt to hide it over the last couple years."

Well, friends and non-friends, I am not one of those in the know, therefore I resent the poster's apparent attitude that as a forum poster that I do know.











Hoss

Unfortunately your attempt to rectify this thread has once again been thwarted by Teflon-pet once again.

Just to clear the air...the individual STLpet refers to is most certainly not Hossfly. I thought it important to clarify this at this point.


_____________________________

Wow! Another epiphany…that is why the suckups suckup. Super sucking protection power. Yea baby.

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 77

RE: Is the AMA forum a battleground? - 1/2/2008 4:20:40 AM   
RCKen



Posts: 14400
Joined: 7/10/2002
From: Lawton, OK, USA
Status: offline 		Note: I have also posted this guideline as a sticky at the top of the forum listing. It can be found here: A new year and a new AMA forum


I was going to initially close this thread down again, but I have changed my mind and I am leaving this here for a reason. As a shining example of what goes on in this forum. There is a small group of people that regularly come to this forum and do nothing but attack each other. And the recent posts in this thread are a perfect example of what is going on. I’ve watched this forum for the last 6 months and now it’s my opinion that there are people in this forum that like to argue just for the sake of the argument. It’s incredible how the simplest topics can spin out of control and result in a knock-down-drag-out fight. I’ve seen grown men act like a bunch of second graders on the schoolyard bickering with each other. It’s really incredible what goes on here.

The troublemakers in this thread don’t fall into any category other than “troublemaker”. The ones that are causing the problems are both Pro and Anti AMA, so that’s not the issue. The problem is that there is a group of members that will cause problems, no matter what the argument. It’s rare that there is a discussion in this forum that doesn’t result an all out battle, many have resulted in the threads being removed or locked.

This forum is provided by RCU for the discussion of AMA matters. RCU intended it to be a tool to help the AMA improve and better serve it’s members, but as it stands now this forum is more a liability to the AMA than an asset. In the time that I have been moderating this forum I have received many PM’s from members who have told me that they would like to participate in this forum, or have questions they would like to ask, but are afraid to in fear that they may be attack by the pack of hounds that prowl this forum right now. What good does that do for the AMA? I have spoken with AMA officers that have said that they are afraid to participate in this forum because of the attacks and antics that goes on in here. What good does that do?

I feel that the AMA Forum on RCU can be a great asset to the AMA; it’s members, and the members of RCU. I feel that this forum could be a great tool that helps shape the AMA into an organization that can grow and accommodate the many rapid changes that are going on within this hobby. I feel that this forum could be a great tool to help new AMA members find their way through the many programs and benefits offered by the AMA. I’ve spent quite a bit of time talking with the administration of RCU (Marc and Nathan) about this, and they agree that this forum holds a lot potential for good. I’ve also spoken to the new AMA President Dave Mathewson about this as well, and we both agree that this forum could be a great thing. But it’s not going to get there in its current state.

So, what are we going to do about it? A little while back I posted guidelines as to how this forum would operate. This worked a little bit, but not like I had hoped it would. I was hoping that the members causing the problems would see this and correct their actions, but I was mistaken here. So, this leaves me in a bind as to what to do. Since I’ve already posted what RCU expects of the members it doesn’t me with many options of where to go next. I spent some time talking with RCU’s Administrator (Nathan) this weekend and I’ve discussed this with him. After talking with Nathan here’s what we decided is going to happen in this forum. You can rest assured that Nathan totally agrees with what we need to do here and backs this policy. And here is what is going to happen.

All of the crap stop right here, and right now. I don’t need to go into all the little details about what I mean by “crap”, because I know full well that everybody here knows what I am talking about. Every member that uses this forum needs to make a decision right now, they are either going to be part of the solution or they are going to be part of the problem. If you want to be part of the solution then I applaud you and welcome your help in cleaning up this forum. But if you are part of the problem, then things are not going to be fun. The Administrator and I agree that if you are part of the problems here then RCU may very well be better off without you. There has always been a bit of leniency given to rules that were broken in this forum, and that is part of why the situation has gotten so bad in here. The troublemakers knew they could get away with a lot because of this leniency. But that ends now. The rules of RCU will be enforced, period.

For those who don’t know what the rules state, I suggest that they spend some time reviewing the rules as there will be no slack given. They can be found here:
RCU Community Rules

As to the rules, and what will be moderated there are a few things that I want to clear up.

  • Negative comments about the AMA will not be removed. There is nothing in the rules of RCU that states that bad things about an organization can’t be talked about. No group, club, or organization is perfect and they all have problems. The AMA is no different. There are problems with the AMA, and that is the fact of the matter. But problems will never be solved unless they are first talked about. In fact, that is one of the things that this forum is here for. To provide a venue for solving problems and issues and for making the AMA stronger.
  • Personal attacks on any member for any reason will not be tolerated. Every member, no matter what their opinions are needs to be treated with the same respect that you want to be treated. Many times on the Internet people will act differently because they are sitting behind a computer screen. These kind of actions and posts will not be tolerated.
  • There are a few of the troublemakers that know exactly where “the line” is and will stop just short of it, and not ever really break any rules yet still stir up lots of trouble. That ends right now. I’ve been watching this forum long enough to know exactly who you are and there will be zero tolerance for this kind of behavior. If I feel that you are posting to just cause problems the post is going to be removed.
  • It is not the moderator’s job to verify the accuracy of information posted here on RCU. If somebody posts false information please don’t expect me to remove it. If somebody has posted something that isn’t correct then you should post the correct information. If a discussion arises over this then it needs to be conducted in a civil manner. If a fight breaks out everybody involved will be dealt with.
  • PM's will be treated exactly the same as posts in the open forums. If members are attacked through PM's the attacker will be dealt with in the same manner as if they did it in the open forums. The basic rule is "Be nice". Sorry if that sounds sappy, but that's what needs to happen more often around here.
  • Please don’t hesitate to send me a PM if you want to discuss any of this. As I have said, I welcome all the help I can get in cleaning this mess up. Also, if you feel that I have done something incorrectly please feel free to ask me. I’m human just like everybody else, and I’m prone to make the occasional mistake. When they are pointed out I will gladly correct the situation if the facts are on your side. There are many examples of actions I have reversed after it was pointed out to me. So please feel free to let me know if you feel I made a mistake.
  • And lastly, contrary to what some here may think, I am not power hungry. When I first came to this forum I tried to keep a hands off policy with as little moderation as possible simply because I don’t like having to do things like that. But I’m left with little choice now. The people participating in this forum that are causing the problems are incapable of policing themselves and I am going to have to do it for them. I wish that this wasn’t the case, but unfortunately it is. If any member feels that I am acting outside of my realm as a Community Moderator here on RCU they are more than welcome to contact Nathan about this. But please know that I have discussed these issues at length with both Nathan and Marc.

    As I said above, the troublemakers come from both sides of the debates here. Both pro and anti-AMA people are causing the problems. And I have a good idea that everybody that this applies to knows exactly who I am talking about here. If this doesn’t apply to some members I will apologize for having to take these steps, and you have nothing to worry about. But for those troublemakers that are causing the problems, please consider this your last warning. I am sorry that I have to say it in such a manner, but I just don’t know how to get your attention here. In my conversations with Nathan we have decided that the members will either help us fix this problem, or they will be the cause of the problem. If they want to fix it then we are more than happy to get that help and welcome those members. But for those that want to continue to be the problem, then RCU doesn’t need you here. It’s a black or white matter, and other factors such as age, length of AMA membership, length of RCU membership, level of involvement in the hobby, income, skill in the hobby, pro-AMA stance, anti-AMA stance, and any number of other just doesn’t matter. If you are part of the problem your time on RCU may be very limited.

    It’s my sincerest wish that this forum can turn in to the valuable asset that I know it can be. But before that happens there are going to be some changes. I do hope that the people causing the problems can see the error in their ways and start getting along with everybody else. I strongly urge everybody to stop and take a good look at themselves and see if they have been causing problems here, some may not even know they are doing it. And for those that know they are causing problems, shape up or ship out.

    And for all those members that want to help make the AMA and this forum a great organization I thank you for your help.

    Ken

    _____________________________

    The take off is optional, but the landing is MANDATORY!!
    AMA # 712539 www.gettingairborne.com
    Moderator- Beginner's, Sport Flying, Off-Topic, & AMA Discussions
    RCU Community Moderator

    (in reply to littlecrankshaf)
       Post #: 78

RE: Is the AMA forum a battleground? - 1/2/2008 4:29:31 AM   
KidEpoxy



Posts: 3223
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: online 		I just want to clear up something I may not have communicated well in my last post:

I'm not blaming out mod RCKen for the stalker complaint not getting anywhere,
I promptly was contacted & discussed further info with him, and he had to move it up the chain of moderation due to who the stalker is. Ken did what he could in the matter for me, and has given me some options to attempt to get the matter actually acted on by upper RCU.



Stick
The question of whether theforum is a battlefield is obviously Yes.
What we really need to work on is whether it should be, and that is No.

Not long ago CT (50%Plane) & I got into a swell debate of logical points on a matter of contention. We were civil, we pretty much respected the comments of each other, and were moving along nicely till the other posters got the thread locked with the usual garbage that goes on here. Afterward we PM'ed each other to say how refreshing it was to have a nice discussion, even if we didnt get to finish it. Even when we have a thread that some guys are trying to play well with others, we get so much stray hate off topic hate slung that the mods have to lock a good thread due to stray garbage.



_____________________________

Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

(in reply to Stickbuilder)
       Post #: 79

RE: Is the AMA forum a battleground? - 1/2/2008 5:15:03 AM   
combatpigg



Posts: 9527
Joined: 11/22/2003
From: arlington, WA, USA
Status: online 		A nice post by RC KEN, but who here is ANTI AMA? That label is part of the problem here.

< Message edited by combatpigg -- 1/2/2008 5:16:54 AM >

_____________________________

Led Zeppelin is NOT "old fogie" music.

(in reply to KidEpoxy)
       Post #: 80

RE: Is the AMA forum a battleground? - 1/2/2008 5:19:08 AM   
timothy thompson


 

Posts: 2761
Joined: 6/19/2004
From: saginaw, MI, USA
Status: offline 		if members can get banned for lengthy periods then we need to do that here . Again how is this helping the hobby? someone is gonna read all this and say gee im glad i didnt join. Ive seen posts elsewhere where peoples adresses and numbers are given out , out of spite and LHS named due to one bad experience. Everything you write here is saved in a little device called a hard drive SO LETS ALL BE NICE. I see a couple of guys who have had run ins at fields and bring it all here to embarrass each other. this stuff can escalate to terrible levels

< Message edited by timothy thompson -- 1/2/2008 5:20:46 AM >

(in reply to KidEpoxy)
       Post #: 81

RE: Is the AMA forum a battleground? - 1/2/2008 5:59:42 AM   
ira d


 

Posts: 790
Joined: 5/29/2003
From: Rancho Belago, CA, USA
Status: online 		I also feel that there are some who post just to be argumentative and that IMO
should not be, in the comming year im going to make a big effort not to reply
to post when it appears they are going to become argumentative.

Im going to try to say somthing once and let it go at that. Because I think most people
have enough common sense to tell if somthing sounds right are someone is
posting something from out in left field. I say let the facts speak for themself
no need to try to shout someone down are try to attack everything they say.

_____________________________

Ira d

(in reply to timothy thompson)
       Post #: 82

RE: Is the AMA forum a battleground? - 1/2/2008 6:13:29 AM   
abel_pranger


 

Posts: 2289
Joined: 5/7/2003
From: St Augustine, FL,
Status: offline 		I read that and similar thoughts initially came to my mind, CP. Then it occurred to me that most of us are not so guarded about what we say that it sometimes comes out in way that might be interpreted to mean other than what was intended. Ken doesn't seem the sort to 'label' people, and has demonstrated that by his even-handedness in moderating (I hope that doesn't start another debate). I presume by anti-AMA he meant opposed to particular positions/actions taken by AMA management, not a general disdain for the organization. I'm not sure if I have made that plain enough for all, but I expect Hoss in particular will understand completely what I am trying to say. He has sounded off with some sharp criticisms of goings-on at HQ from time to time, but if there is a stronger supporter of AMA somewhere, he is not known to me.

Abel

(in reply to combatpigg)
       Post #: 83

RE: Is the AMA forum a battleground? - 1/2/2008 7:11:02 AM   
littlecrankshaf



Posts: 2104
Joined: 12/9/2001
From: here
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg

...but who here is ANTI AMA? That label is part of the problem here.


Exactly!

For the most of us in this forum it is apparent the AMA is a genuine asset to our hobby/sport/activity/whatever but we all seem to have our unique perception as to what the AMA should be. It runs the gamut... control to insure uniformity and adherence of prescribed conduct or promoting the hobby for the expression of ones personal freedoms of a worthwhile activity.


There are some restrictions we must accept to maintain the insurability of our endeavor via AMA’s insurers and there are other things that we collectively volunteer to restrict ourselves in an attempt to self-police, hopefully to circumvent outside needed controls. There will always be heated argument about just how much volunteering we should do in regards to restricting our activity. Either way, voluntarily or mandatorily, once restricted the freedom in question will most likely disappear for good, since it is almost impossible to reverse legislate.

The great Paintball debacle is a good example of the different viewpoints here. Some here would have extinguished the activity if given their way while others fought to show the merit of maintaining the freedom/activity. I am personally relived we didn’t lose yet another liberty. We argued about the paintball activity at length and many times it became very heated. Arguments are fine…even heated ones… IMO until someone resorts to cursing, flaming, degrading, insulting or embarrassing people in their posts. It is usually the weaker position holder that resorts to those tactics. BTW calling someone a “troll” is just anothetr degradation and has the effect of coloring the thread/responder just as any other derogative characterization would. Each post should be evaluated independently by its own merit unless derogatory attacks are made on another, even if by inference. Some are masters at inferring characterizing innuendo…that certainly needs to stop as well!


The contention will always be “how much control is necessary to maintain freedom?”


_____________________________

Wow! Another epiphany…that is why the suckups suckup. Super sucking protection power. Yea baby.

(in reply to combatpigg)
       Post #: 84

RE: Is the AMA forum a battleground? - 1/2/2008 10:39:36 AM   
Mode One


 

Posts: 2228
Joined: 5/4/2005
From: Park Rapids, MN, USA
Status: offline 		Some whom I had considered at the pinnacle of being Anti AMA have asked: "Who are these people". This demonstrates again that attempting to pigeon-hole people by their opinions which are stated in a few posts on R/CU, is lacking in research leg work. I am guilty of this trait, also!


_____________________________

Mode One, AMA 59157

(in reply to littlecrankshaf)
       Post #: 85

RE: Is the AMA forum a battleground? - 1/2/2008 1:47:07 PM   
STLPilot


 

Posts: 9091
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: abel_pranger

Stick-

You asked the question, and now you're getting the answer...........and I don't like it any better than you do.

Abel

It's funny Abel, but an answer is what I gave LCS as well. Seems you didn't like his answer very much either. Hence my first post before you Abel, decided to debate me on the subject. I just think that personal issues should be dealt with off RCU. Obviously he might have thought the same thing, seeing he practically asked for his post to be nuked after he posted it.

And LCS of course we know you're not talking about Hoss!



_____________________________

Here At The Wall

(in reply to abel_pranger)
       Post #: 86

RE: Is the AMA forum a battleground? - 1/2/2008 3:32:22 PM   
KidEpoxy



Posts: 3223
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: online
quote:

but who here is ANTI AMA? That label is part of the problem here


What, havent you been paying attention?
Clearly it is KidEpoxy that is anti-ama, according to this forum.

The AMA put out MA as optional, I'm in favor of that, which makes me Anti-AMA.
The AMA allows safe paintball events, I'm in favor of that, which makes me Anti-AMA.
The AMA says we have to share the freqs with the public, so do I, which makes me Anti-AMA.
The AMA has a program that pays folks for ideas to save money, I'm very in favor of saving money, which makes me ANti-AMA.

And of course the AMA is not big on discrimination & intollerance, I'm not a fan of that either, which aparently makes me ANti-AMA too.


So there should be no mystery whom they are talking about when they throw around the Anti-AMA lable,
it is anyone with opinions contrary to theirs,
to include Muncie it seems. Muncie did the Optional MA thing, Muncie did the Paintball thing, Muncie wants cheaper ways to do things... Muncie preaches diversity & tolerance. I cant believe all the hate coming out of Muncie, they should get banned, those AMA Haters.

The people of California fired their govenor midterm for acting the fool,
that doesnt mean they are Anti-California,
it means they are Anti-Davis and want better for the state they support. Living in California is optional, if they didnt like Davis they should have just quit, nobody was forcing them to stay in Cal. See, sounds silly to say folks should quit if they dont like the way things are currently running, when they could do something to change the way they run instead. The way they changed it wasnt thru waiting for the election term primaries & campaigning, they gathered up masses with public activism and made things happen midterm. They complained & whined & anti/hated their way to successfully changing the way things run. But we dont say The Govenator is Anti-California because he opposed Davis & the BusinessAsUsual-Assembly.

_____________________________

Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

(in reply to combatpigg)