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Why the Speedboy Patriot went 170 mph - 1/6/2008 7:17:44 AM   
Mike Connor



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OK, I have too much time on my hands but someone had to figure out this pitch x rpm stuff.

Here is how this Patriot made it to 170 mph in a dive with a 10x8 and why I predict 201 mph in a dive with a 9x10 prop. The theoretical speed considering pitch and rpm must also consider the propeller airfoil and airframe drag to be accurate. Since the propeller airfoil and the airframe drag is usually ignored and counteract each other, the straight pitch x rpm is often not to far off. As we try to go faster we use sleeker airframes to over come the ever increasing drag with speed. This often keeps the simple pitch x rpm some what accurate in the speed range our models fly. Put the same prop and engine on a 60 trainer and we see the formula is not even close.

To calculate speeds I used information from http://www.apcprop.com/ and http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/airplane/foil2.html . I think I can trust APC props and NASA. I would like to start with a quote from the APC site that says

“The dominant basis for the primary airfoil shape used in most APC propellers is similar to the NACA 4412 and Clark-Y airfoils, except the leading edge is somewhat lower. Also, the aft region is somewhat thicker. This alters the zero-lift angle by approximately one degree and provides greater lift without having to twist the blade even more.”

The NACA 4412 airfoil has a camber of 4% and if we put that in the foil simulator on the NASA site we can see that it has a lift factor equal to an AOA of about 4 degrees. We then add 1 degree because of the altered zero-lift angle as stated on the APC site. We then have an airfoil lift factor equivalent to 5 degrees pitch. A 10 x 8 prop is twisted 15 degrees at the tip to give it an 8” pitch. Therefore, because of the airfoil shape, we have a pitch equivalent to 1.33 times 8 (15 degrees for pitch and 5 degrees for airfoil) or a 10 x 10.64 prop.

The Rossi 53 is not timed for high rpm and gets a static 15,500 rpm with a 10 x 8. A typical unloading of about 1500 rpm would take it to 17,000 rpm. After that the engine timing and the pipe would act as a governor and not allow much more, even in a dive. At this point the prop would act as a huge break if the plane tried to go faster. Calculating a theoretical speed using 17,000 rpm, using our equivalent prop size of 10 x 10.64 and not losing anything to drag because of the steep dive you come up with, you guessed it, 171 mph. Now where have we heard that # before?

Do the same thing with a 9x10 prop and we come up with an equivalent pitch of 12.5. The same rpm is used because of engine and pipe timing and no loss to drag because of the dive. The speed will be 201 mph if flutter does not take it out. It is interesting to note that the actual speed of 133 mph in level flight would be an actual prop efficiency of 78%.

No arbitrary views but any other thoughts are welcome if you made it this far


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RE: Why the Speedboy Patriot went 170 mph - 1/6/2008 2:23:45 PM   
freakingfast


 

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Thanks Mike, that was clear and made a lot of sense. The braking effect of a spinning prop can be powerful. I've notice on some planes that if the prop is not turning, that the plane actually lands hotter vs. a running engine at low idle. I wonder if the prop not turning would have less braking/drag (air stalled) in a dive than a spinning prop?
Just try to stop an engine from wind-milling at those speed.

< Message edited by freakingfast -- 1/6/2008 2:27:45 PM >


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RE: Why the Speedboy Patriot went 170 mph - 1/6/2008 2:47:10 PM   
evan-RCU



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Then we are in the electric hot liners region, climb to altitude fold the prop and zoom down.

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RE: Why the Speedboy Patriot went 170 mph - 1/6/2008 4:12:03 PM   
Mike Connor



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quote:

ORIGINAL: freakingfast

I wonder if the prop not turning would have less braking/drag (air stalled) in a dive than a spinning prop?

With a few thousand hours in single and multi engine propeller aircraft I did not see a stopped propeller in flight unless it was feathered. I did have two props (one twin and one single) quit turning during the landing roll out. however, someone else has answered you question.
Either the stopped prop or the windmilling prop could have more drag. It depends on pitch, prop length and speed. For more info and graphs visit.

http://www.goshen.edu/physics/PropellerDrag/PropellerDrag.htm


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RE: Why the Speedboy Patriot went 170 mph - 1/6/2008 4:15:14 PM   
Mike Connor



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quote:

ORIGINAL: freakingfast

The braking effect of a spinning prop can be powerful.

More then most think. During multi engine training there was a huge difference when you went from windmill to feather

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RE: Why the Speedboy Patriot went 170 mph - 1/6/2008 4:22:32 PM   
HighPlains


 

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Good information on the APC airfoils and zero thrust angles on the APC props Mike. However, I’m afraid that just a change in prop to 9x10 will not achieve 200 mph even if the airplane dove straight down from altitude. Just not enough power available from the engine and conversion of the aircraft’s potential energy. However if another 2.5 lbs. of weight is added to the aircraft (estimated now at 6 lbs.), you might be able to reach 200 mph briefly. The pullout from a vertical dive had better start before you reach 150 feet AGL if you want to keep the g loading below 20 g’s.

You need to do a little more research on the concept of prop efficiency. I’ve seen it referred to on RCU quite often, and almost all have it wrong.

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RE: Why the Speedboy Patriot went 170 mph - 1/6/2008 4:53:24 PM   
Mike Connor



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quote:

ORIGINAL: HighPlains

You need to do a little more research on the concept of prop efficiency. I’ve seen it referred to on RCU quite often, and almost all have it wrong.


My first post was a combination of facts and theory so maybe I should have put in a disclaimer. You must remember that I used the word "predict 201 mph" and not will go 201 mph so that should have given it away. There is no way to know all the exact facts but I still predict the engine power and gravity will allow up to but not much in excess of 200 mph with a 9x10 prop. Time will tell.

I was a pilot and not an aeronautical engineer so I do not have all the answers. I do try to back up what I say by explaining my reasoning and point to reputable web sites that support me. I was hoping to learn something in this thread but those with more knowledge then me could elaborate on why I am wrong and not just tell me to go do more research. At least point me to a web site that contradicts me. There is usually a difference between theory and reality so the real test will be the radar and Doppler #'s.


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RE: Why the Speedboy Patriot went 170 mph - 1/6/2008 4:57:48 PM   
Mike Connor



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quote:

ORIGINAL: HighPlains

However, I’m afraid that just a change in prop to 9x10 will not achieve 200 mph even if the airplane dove straight down from altitude. Just not enough power available from the engine and conversion of the aircraft’s potential energy. However if another 2.5 lbs. of weight is added to the aircraft (estimated now at 6 lbs.), you might be able to reach 200 mph briefly.

I think that gliders have proven that you do not need a strong engine or weight to reach 200 mph.


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RE: Why the Speedboy Patriot went 170 mph - 1/6/2008 5:26:28 PM   
HighPlains


 

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A pretty good explaination of prop efficiency was made in this thread by Oryx.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4345826/anchors_4345826/mpage_1/key_efficiency/anchor/tm.htm#4345826

For Speedboy's Patriot to reach the vaunted 200 mph, it will require around 6 1/2 hp. Since the engine is not going to provide that amount, gravity has to provide the rest. Since you know the terminal velocity goal, it is a simple matter to determine the weight required.

And gliders do use ballast to gain speed.

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RE: Why the Speedboy Patriot went 170 mph - 1/6/2008 7:38:37 PM   
combatpigg



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One of the first model aviation guide books I ever cracked open claimed that some C/L speed plane combos acheived 100% prop efficiency, if not better.

No doubt that weight = power in a dive. A heavy enough plane can push its' engine well beyond any rpm that it could reach on its' own. Reminds me of the time I landed [a very tail heavy] plane after a nice power dive, with just a short stub of connecting rod hanging out of a ripped open crankcase.

It was a G-21 SuperTigre .35

< Message edited by combatpigg -- 1/6/2008 7:41:15 PM >


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RE: Why the Speedboy Patriot went 170 mph - 1/6/2008 8:21:39 PM   
Mike Connor



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quote:

ORIGINAL: combatpigg

One of the first model aviation guide books I ever cracked open claimed that some C/L speed plane combos acheived 100% prop efficiency, if not better.


I guess you need to define efficiency here. A 0 pitch prop could fly a plane because of the airfoil shape. Is that exceeding 100% efficiency? I think a dive would be cheating. Other then that we would have perpetual motion and I would like a piece of that pie.
Now let me think about HighPlains and terminal velocity.

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RE: Why the Speedboy Patriot went 170 mph - 1/6/2008 8:38:40 PM   
Mike Connor



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quote:

ORIGINAL: HighPlains

Since you know the terminal velocity goal, it is a simple matter to determine the weight required.


Your thread link was interesting but much of it is a little over my head with out some serious effort. What I got out of it is that there is a lot of theory in propeller designing and the "proof is in the pudding".

help me out with this terminal velocity of a Patriot. Maybe it is me in the land of Oz.
Here are my #'s and I think they are very conservative in favor of slow speed.
6 lbs - aircraft weight
.75 sq ft - cross section - my delta is .25 so I tripled that
.08 drag Coefficient - With retracts it is fairly clean but I still almost doubled a typical wing drag coefficient.
1740' altitude - Monterrey Mexico
Terminal velocity is 297 ft sec or 202 mph
Where am I going wrong?



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RE: Why the Speedboy Patriot went 170 mph - 1/6/2008 9:02:18 PM   
Mike Connor



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quote:

ORIGINAL: HighPlains

A pretty good explaination of prop efficiency was made in this thread by Oryx.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_4345826/anchors_4345826/mpage_1/key_efficiency/anchor/tm.htm#4345826


I find it ironic that my prop efficiency #'s based on theoretical pitch slippage was so close to your (claimed and widely agreed upon) typical prop efficiency of 80% considering other information.

Edit - added bold words

< Message edited by Mike Connor -- 1/6/2008 9:31:10 PM >


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RE: Why the Speedboy Patriot went 170 mph - 1/7/2008 12:12:34 AM   
HighPlains


 

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quote:

there is a lot of theory in propeller designing and the "proof is in the pudding".


This is true. A terrific amount of study was done on the subject, mostly in the 30’s and 40’s but a limited amount still goes on even today. Yet the result of all of it is efficiency in the range of 80-85%. The prop designer has a great number of tradeoffs to make. Pitch and diameter most are aware of, but toss into the mix the pitch curve (actual pitch of the prop from the hub to the tip), airfoil selection, and blade width. Other requirements have to do with the distribution of mass in the blades relative to the plane of rotation, modes of vibration and stiffness, and material strength.

Usually the airfoil is picked more for strength towards the hub, while the airfoils on the outer portions of the blade does most of the work. With most props washed out at the hub (lowered pitch), sport and racing props differ at the tips. Many sport props are also washed out at the tips, while racing props typically have the highest pitch at the tips. For a sport prop, this washout at the tip gives better acceleration on takeoffs and more rpm in the air.

So if we assume that any well chosen, well made prop has roughly the same efficiency, say 82%, then selecting a prop comes down to matching it to both airframe and power available from the engine. This means finding the optimum size to allow the engine to unload to a point where it makes the maximum power. Fortunately, this peak power rpm is usually fairly flat over a narrow rpm range. Generally, once you get very close, then changes of a couple tenth’s of inch in pitch or diameter is about all you can make, and atmospheric conditions start to dominate which prop over a very limited range will work best.

Knowing the airspeed that a certain power output achieves with a well matched prop then allows calculation of how much power is required to achieve another speed. Simply stated, power required is a simple cubic function, so doubling the power only increases speed by 26%. So when a 6 lb. airplane flys level at 135 mph while hitting 170 at a 45 degree dive, we can calculate how much power is available from both gravity and the engine. It turns out in this single case, that engine power (82%) and gravity power are roughly equal. With the airplane diving it moving at 250 feet/sec, and the downward component of this is (sine 45) x 250 ft/sec, or 177 feet of altitude per second. Multiply this by 6 lbs. and you have 1060 ft^2-lbs/sec. Divide that by 550 ft^2-lb/sec and you have 1.9 hp added by the dive. Since this is roughly equal to what the engine is putting out, we figure the engine power by 1.9/0.82 (prop efficiency) and end up with an engine output power of 2.3 hp.

Now to see if 200 mph is possible when in the 6 lb configuration, we need to increase the available power by 63% over what was available at 170. This works out to 6.2 hp (my bad earlier, I used 2 hp from the engine in a rough estimate). Subtracting the 1.9 from 6.2 means that gravity has to provide 4.3 hp. This is 2365 ft^2-lbs/sec, and 200 mph is 293.3 ft/sec. So dividing out gives 8.06 lbs., thus at 6 lbs, the airplane will not be able to reach 200 mph regardless what propeller is used.

< Message edited by HighPlains -- 1/7/2008 12:15:02 AM >

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