RE: Is the cost of the PPP membership fair to other AMA members?  
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[Poll]

Is the cost of the PPP membership fair to other AMA members?
Yes, a 2lb plane traveling 60mph cant hurt anyone
  34% (29)
No, they are getting a better tiered rate than FF
  5% (5)
No, they are getting a better tiered rate than gliders
  1% (1)
No, they are getting a better tiered rate than 1/2a
  4% (4)
No, $58 bucks and $30 for family members for the right to vote!!!!
  53% (45)


Total Votes : 84
(last vote on : 4/11/2008 12:15:29 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Is the cost of the PPP membership fair to other AM... - 3/19/2008 1:45:11 PM   
STLPilot


 

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From: Manhattan, NY, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: P-51B
BUT on this point it makes me wonder; if this is the case, why are control line fliers charged the full rate? Or what about the guys that fly the rubber powered free flight planes?
Huh? What?
Park Flyer models will weigh two pounds or less and be incapable of reaching speeds greater than 60 mph. They must be electric or rubber powered, or of any similar quiet means of propulsion. Models should be remotely controlled or flown with a control line, remain within the pilot’s line of sight at all times, and always be flown safely by the operator. LINK

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Here At The Wall

(in reply to P-51B)
       Post #: 26

RE: Is the cost of the PPP membership fair to other AM... - 3/19/2008 2:24:41 PM   
P-51B



Posts: 6173
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

quote:

ORIGINAL: P-51B
BUT on this point it makes me wonder; if this is the case, why are control line fliers charged the full rate? Or what about the guys that fly the rubber powered free flight planes?
Huh? What?
Park Flyer models will weigh two pounds or less and be incapable of reaching speeds greater than 60 mph. They must be electric or rubber powered, or of any similar quiet means of propulsion. Models should be remotely controlled or flown with a control line, remain within the pilot’s line of sight at all times, and always be flown safely by the operator. LINK



Clearly you missed the point of the post. The question is (I thought it was pretty clear the first time) Along the lines of aeajr's quote, why are control line flyers charged full AMA dues, or why are rubber powered free flight flyers charged the full AMA rate (not in pilots control but usuall much lighter than a PF), or what about the 1/2 glow pilot flying a 1.5 lb plane?

Any clearer for you?


aeajr: thanks for the response, like I said it wasn't necessarily directed at you, as I would also like others perspectives. I think one of us, could be me, is unclear about the rubber powered free flight since the PPP language says it should be remotely controlled. It seems like there was some language about "must be under the pilots control" somewhere originally also...but could I could be wrong on that also.


Looks like I have broken my own request about just voting. Time to get back to that, for me at least.

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(in reply to STLPilot)
       Post #: 27

RE: Is the cost of the PPP membership fair to other A... - 3/19/2008 2:58:11 PM   
STLPilot


 

Posts: 9110
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Clearly you missed the point of the post. The question is (I thought it was pretty clear the first time) Along the lines of aeajr's quote, why are control line flyers charged full AMA dues, or why are rubber powered free flight flyers charged the full AMA rate (not in pilots control but usuall much lighter than a PF), or what about the 1/2 glow pilot flying a 1.5 lb plane?
First off nobody is charged anything, the AMA membership program at any level is not only optional, unlike your tax filings, it's also a luxury product.

However anyone can CHOOSE which program better fits THEIR needs, not what you, I or AEJr, thinks is best for THEIR personal best interests.

Oh .... also FF pilots, whom DO NOT have control of their models can join and be covered under the PPP program.

< Message edited by STLPilot -- 3/19/2008 3:00:36 PM >

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Here At The Wall

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       Post #: 28

RE: Is the cost of the PPP membership fair to other A... - 3/19/2008 3:43:24 PM   
aeajr



Posts: 5495
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Long Island, NY, USA
Status: offline 		STL Pilot, I do not believe free flight is covered under the PPP. Have you seen somewhere where it is?

Criteria - you have to meet them all:

1) weight
2) speed
3) quiet
4) Under pilot's control at all times. - Free flights are not under the pilot's control once they leave his hand.

One of the key objectives of the program is to enable the development of smaller flying fields in urban and suburban areas. Free Flighers need HUGE flying fields because they have no control of the plane once they release it.

We have several free flight pilots in our club. They all put long range radio control transmitters on their planes so they can find them with direction finders when they drift miles down wind. You can't contain them within the boundries of the field. I have spent many fun hours helping them get thier planes out of the trees that surround our field, and our field has an open area of 800X1600 feet. That is considered, by most, to be a pretty big field.

I don't know of any specific target size but I would guess the park pilot fields may be targeted at about 500X500 feet. But that is a guess on my part.

_____________________________

Clear Skies and Safe Flying!
Ed Anderson
Moderator
Park Pilot Program Partner

(in reply to STLPilot)
       Post #: 29

RE: Is the cost of the PPP membership fair to other A... - 3/19/2008 4:00:48 PM   
bdavison


 

Posts: 3333
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Warner Robins, GA, USA
Status: offline 		You guys are specifically missing who the parkflyer program is for.

There are thousands of kids out there between the ages of 4-18 years old, that have no homeowners insurance because they dont yet own a home. They dont have jobs because they arent old enough. These kids are desperatly trying to break into this hobby. Some of them are doing it on their own, with no support from parents, instructors, or local flying fields.

Since these kids dont have jobs, they scrounge every last cent they can from mowing yards, chores, etc. to buy planes and helicopters.

These same kids, just want to fly. They dont care about competitions, or what could go wrong, or insurance, or what some glow pilot is doing at his field. They just want to fly....period.

These kids got left out in the cold and COMPLETELY neglected by the AMA under our previous programs and administration. So much to the point that they felt animosity towards the AMA and its membership because of it.

We did not have a program for them...no matter what you think. Telling a kid that was rummaging through the sofa cushions for quarters to buy a prop to come up with $58 bucks for a AMA membership that he/she would likely never be able to take advantage of is INSANE!!! These are KIDS, not some adult. They dont have the luxury of hopping in a car or truck and driving 20 miles to the local AMA field.

I spend as much time as I can with kid flyers. Some of them literally have to beg their parents to take them to the park down the road, much less convince their parents to take them 20 miles to a flying field. For a child that wants to fly, and has parents that dont fly....its a daunting task for them to even get started.

The parkflyer membership opens up COMPLETELY new doors for these kids.

For the first time, they can set up and create a AMA chartered club, and local flying field all covered under AMA insurance for them, by them.

If you havent read/viewed the parkflyer manual from the AMA....go read it. Its a fantastic booklet, and honestly in my opinion ought to be required reading for every AMA member. Since some of the full open members still dont know this stuff.
It specifically details how a few parkflyer kids, can start a chartered club, write bylaws to protect themselves, locate, aquire, and establish a flying site, templates for getting sites, how the insurance works, what is covered, what other benefits they can get, how to hold events, etc.

If we continued on the past administrations path of ignoring and belittling the parkflyers, it WILL have dire consequences for the AMA. You simply CANNOT bitter an entire generation against the AMA and survive. The parkflyer program is the right program at the right time.







_____________________________

teamflyingcircus.com

(in reply to STLPilot)
       Post #: 30

RE: Is the cost of the PPP membership fair to other A... - 3/19/2008 4:05:53 PM   
Hossfly



Posts: 3770
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: New Caney, TX, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

//snip//
However anyone can CHOOSE which program better fits THEIR needs, not what you, I or AEJr, thinks is best for THEIR personal best interests.

Oh .... also FF pilots, whom DO NOT have control of their models can join and be covered under the PPP program.


WOW, STL: Once again you demonstrate just how well you are so UNINFORMED! Or could you maybe just taken over Jim Cherry's job as Ex. Director of the AMA and I am the uninformed one.

This has been previously posted in this forum:
>>>>
AMA Web Site:
Park Flyer Definition:
Park Flyer models will weigh two pounds or less and be incapable of reaching speeds greater than 60 mph. They must be electric or rubber powered, or of any similar quiet means of propulsion. Models should be remotely controlled or flown with a control line, remain within the pilot’s line of sight at all times, and always be flown safely by the operator.
<<<<

>>>>>
Email from Cherry ref my questions.

Horace:
Thanks for the inquirey about the new AMA Park Pilot Program. Please see my responses in green below.

Jim

Jim Cherry
Executive Director
Academy of Model Aeronautics

From: CainHD@aol.com
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 15:44:13 -0500
Subject: What does this mean?
To: jcherry@modelaircraft.org; et. al. snipped

Park Flier Definition Question:
What does this mean?
>>>
They must be electric or rubber powered, or of any similar quiet means of propulsion. Models should be remotely controlled or flown with a control line, remain within the pilot’s line of sight at all times, and always be flown safely by the operator." <<<<
There is a vast difference between MUST and SHOULD.

This means to fly within the Park Flyer defination they will be under control of the pilot at all times. In this case "Should" is a must. No combustion engines (rubber powered, electric, c02,etc. key words here are quiet)

So legally here, as I read your attempts to DEFINE PF items, a rubber powered Free Flight model can be operated (rubber wound and model released, and especially if equipped with a dethermalizer)

This is incorrect becasue FREE FLIGHT is not under control of the pilot at all times even with a dethermalizer.

fly in a Class C or Cr Fun Fly (Sanctioned non-rule book) or for sport and be legal under the park fliers' AMA memberships. After all it is INTENDED for the model to be in sight, and the model only SHOULD be controlled.
BTW, a FF flier does control (certainly claimable) the model with adjustments, power settings, and a maybe a dethermalizer.
<<<<<<<<<<

STL, maybe you should correct Cherry. OTOH, perhaps you should act on fact rather than emotion.




_____________________________

Horrace Cain.
AMA Life L-93, Leader and CD for 45 years
Official Candidate: AMA Ex. Vice Pres. Vote H. Cain. Help move AMA into 21st Century
The only source of knowledge is experience. Albert Einstein

(in reply to STLPilot)
       Post #: 31

RE: Is the cost of the PPP membership fair to other A... - 3/19/2008 4:37:30 PM   
abel_pranger


 

Posts: 2297
Joined: 5/7/2003
From: St Augustine, FL,
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bdavison

You guys are specifically missing who the parkflyer program is for.

There are thousands of kids out there between the ages of 4-18 years old, that have no homeowners insurance because they dont yet own a home. They dont have jobs because they arent old enough. These kids are desperatly trying to break into this hobby. Some of them are doing it on their own, with no support from parents, instructors, or local flying fields.<snip>



bdavison-

The folks you are talking about get full-fare AMA membership for a buck/yr. At two clubs I belong to, they also get club membership for a buck/yr. They stay away in droves at that price. Why PPP, again?

Abel

(in reply to bdavison)
       Post #: 32

RE: Is the cost of the PPP membership fair to other A... - 3/19/2008 4:45:43 PM   
littlecrankshaf



Posts: 2112
Joined: 12/9/2001
From: here
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bdavison

You guys are specifically missing who the parkflyer program is for.

There are thousands of kids out there between the ages of 4-18 years old, that have no homeowners insurance because they dont yet own a home. They dont have jobs because they arent old enough. These kids are desperatly trying to break into this hobby. Some of them are doing it on their own, with no support from parents, instructors, or local flying fields.

Since these kids dont have jobs, they scrounge every last cent they can from mowing yards, chores, etc. to buy planes and helicopters.

These same kids, just want to fly. They dont care about competitions, or what could go wrong, or insurance, or what some glow pilot is doing at his field. They just want to fly....period.

These kids got left out in the cold and COMPLETELY neglected by the AMA under our previous programs and administration. So much to the point that they felt animosity towards the AMA and its membership because of it.

We did not have a program for them...no matter what you think. Telling a kid that was rummaging through the sofa cushions for quarters to buy a prop to come up with $58 bucks for a AMA membership that he/she would likely never be able to take advantage of is INSANE!!! These are KIDS, not some adult. They dont have the luxury of hopping in a car or truck and driving 20 miles to the local AMA field.

I spend as much time as I can with kid flyers. Some of them literally have to beg their parents to take them to the park down the road, much less convince their parents to take them 20 miles to a flying field. For a child that wants to fly, and has parents that dont fly....its a daunting task for them to even get started.

The parkflyer membership opens up COMPLETELY new doors for these kids.

For the first time, they can set up and create a AMA chartered club, and local flying field all covered under AMA insurance for them, by them.

If you havent read/viewed the parkflyer manual from the AMA....go read it. Its a fantastic booklet, and honestly in my opinion ought to be required reading for every AMA member. Since some of the full open members still dont know this stuff.
It specifically details how a few parkflyer kids, can start a chartered club, write bylaws to protect themselves, locate, aquire, and establish a flying site, templates for getting sites, how the insurance works, what is covered, what other benefits they can get, how to hold events, etc.

If we continued on the past administrations path of ignoring and belittling the parkflyers, it WILL have dire consequences for the AMA. You simply CANNOT bitter an entire generation against the AMA and survive. The parkflyer program is the right program at the right time.







Hmmm...I guess maybe you have overlooked the 1 dollar non-PPP AMA membership that has been in place. PPP is divisive...no way around it.


PPP is going to hurt the hobby and the AMA in the long run...of course we might get a handful of members in the short run and then blame the overall future decline on some other variables but that is common today…just never admit………………………


_____________________________

Wow! Another epiphany…that is why the suckups suckup. Super sucking protection power. Yea baby.

(in reply to bdavison)
       Post #: 33

RE: Is the cost of the PPP membership fair to other A... - 3/19/2008 4:51:31 PM   
P-51B



Posts: 6173
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bdavison

You guys are specifically missing who the parkflyer program is for.

There are thousands of kids out there between the ages of 4-18 years old, that have no homeowners insurance because they dont yet own a home. They dont have jobs because they arent old enough. These kids are desperatly trying to break into this hobby. Some of them are doing it on their own, with no support from parents, instructors, or local flying fields.

Since these kids dont have jobs, they scrounge every last cent they can from mowing yards, chores, etc. to buy planes and helicopters.

These same kids, just want to fly. They dont care about competitions, or what could go wrong, or insurance, or what some glow pilot is doing at his field. They just want to fly....period.

These kids got left out in the cold and COMPLETELY neglected by the AMA under our previous programs and administration. So much to the point that they felt animosity towards the AMA and its membership because of it.

We did not have a program for them...no matter what you think. Telling a kid that was rummaging through the sofa cushions for quarters to buy a prop to come up with $58 bucks for a AMA membership that he/she would likely never be able to take advantage of is INSANE!!! These are KIDS, not some adult. They dont have the luxury of hopping in a car or truck and driving 20 miles to the local AMA field.

I spend as much time as I can with kid flyers. Some of them literally have to beg their parents to take them to the park down the road, much less convince their parents to take them 20 miles to a flying field. For a child that wants to fly, and has parents that dont fly....its a daunting task for them to even get started.

The parkflyer membership opens up COMPLETELY new doors for these kids.

For the first time, they can set up and create a AMA chartered club, and local flying field all covered under AMA insurance for them, by them.

If you havent read/viewed the parkflyer manual from the AMA....go read it. Its a fantastic booklet, and honestly in my opinion ought to be required reading for every AMA member. Since some of the full open members still dont know this stuff.
It specifically details how a few parkflyer kids, can start a chartered club, write bylaws to protect themselves, locate, aquire, and establish a flying site, templates for getting sites, how the insurance works, what is covered, what other benefits they can get, how to hold events, etc.



Sorry, can't let this go. This is wrong on so many levels its ridiculous.

First, the kiddies would be covered under the parents homeowners/renters insurance.

Second kiddies under 19 can join as regular AMA members for $15.00, or with out the magazine for $1.00...both MUCH cheaper than the $29.00 cost of the PPP you say is targeted specifically at them. I think reading the AMA application should be the first required reading. (you can find it here: http://www.modelaircraft.org/membership/applications.aspx )

So, they could always charter a new club (more expense) or join an existing club, or fly in the local park if the laws allow and the follow they safety code....all for a lower rate!!!




quote:



If we continued on the past administrations path of ignoring and belittling the parkflyers, it WILL have dire consequences for the AMA. You simply CANNOT bitter an entire generation against the AMA and survive.



I am not aware of the AMA belittling parkflyers. At least I never felt belittled and I fly them also. To me, this statement seems to indicate a militant attitude.


edited to add: Looks like I type too slow, others already pointed out the $1.00 rate.

< Message edited by P-51B -- 3/19/2008 6:15:19 PM >

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       Post #: 34

RE: Is the cost of the PPP membership fair to other A... - 3/19/2008 5:17:53 PM   
camW


 

Posts: 47
Joined: 7/18/2003
From: Charlottesville, VA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

Is the cost of the PPP membership fair to other AMA members?



What a question !!!

Other AMA members don't need to buy it.

(in reply to P-51B)
       Post #: 35

RE: Is the cost of the PPP membership fair to other A... - 3/19/2008 6:14:12 PM   
P-51B



Posts: 6173
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: camW


quote:

Is the cost of the PPP membership fair to other AMA members?



What a question !!!

Other AMA members don't need to buy it.



LOL

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In order to think "outside the box", one must first accept there IS a box.

(in reply to camW)
       Post #: 36

RE: Is the cost of the PPP membership fair to other A... - 3/19/2008 6:48:55 PM