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Kioritz 16cc - 6/17/2003 9:39 AM   
av8tor1977



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From: Lukeville, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		HI,

You know, I've had that engine laying around for so long I can't remember where I got it. I never used it, nor even started it as a weedwhacker. I either grabbed it at a yard sale, or somebody gave it to me. Then one day the idea grabbed me to go ahead and convert it, and it worked great.

A number of people expressed that they thought it would be too heavy for the power it put out, but I'm happy with it. My custom Stick weighs 9.5 lbs with it installed, and it pulls it around through aerobatics very nicely. No unlimited vertical, nor "3D" stuff, but I like it. This would be super on a large Cub, Decathalon, maybe a Spacewalker, or something like that.

I'll be working on some hop ups now, and I'll keep everyone advised. It presently turns the 15 x 8 APC prop at 7000 and has about 6.9 lbs thrust. I know I can improve on this.

You might find one by checking repair shops that specialize in Echo machinery, or get lucky at a yard sale or swap meet. I know I'll be watching out for deals on Echo's, or other equipment with Kioritz engines. This was a fun project that turned out well.

Good luck,
AV8TOR

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ATTENTION ADAM... - 7/3/2003 4:23 AM   
av8tor1977



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From: Lukeville, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Hi everyone,

Well I put the larger carb on my little Kioritz 16cc. It is 1 mm bigger than the stocker. Gained 500 rpm's! Now it's turning an APC 15 X 8 at an honest 7500. About 1 lb. more thrust. I'm surprised and happy. I'm in the middle of moving so I don't have more time to tinker, but now I can't wait to raise the compression and play with the port timing to see how much more I can gain.

Adam, I bought some other engines and now have an extra carb like you sent me, in case you some day convert your Kioritz 16cc. I need a couple of 11 or 12 mm carbs if you have any extras.

Take care,

AV8TOR

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don't forget echo! - 7/3/2003 8:40 AM   
soulman



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From: Didsbury, AB, CANADA
Status: offline 		Good eve, I wonder if I could ask a couple of ?'s. A couple things jumped out at me as I was reading through all of the replys. I noticed that not once did anyone talk about a "thrust washer" to prevent the prop from "pulling" the crank out of the front of the crankcase. Is this not a possibility? I am completely green to this but that is what I heard years back. Secondly, how is the prop fastened to the crankshaft? Is it a good thing if an engine has electronic ignition? I had a stihl 70 cc chainsaw that I would like to try something with given to me. lastly, and thank you for bearing with all my questions, how would a person know what size a plane to put a given engine onto?
Thanks for your time. I look foreward to learning from all of you!!

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don't forget echo! - 7/3/2003 9:29 AM   
av8tor1977



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From: Lukeville, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Well, you can go to [url]www.rcfaq.com[/url] and check out the RPM data chart. That will tell you what some of the engines are putting out for thrust. You can also search these forums and see if anyone else is using that engine. 70cc will pull a rather large plane. You will want a thrust to weight ratio of greater than 1 to 1 if you live by that logo of yours...

Some of the engines use roller bearings instead of ball bearings. With the ball bearings, thrust loads are not an issue. Some have used a thrust washer to take up the thrust loads on engines with roller bearings, but I myself would prefer ball bearings in an aircraft application.

The prop hub you can either make yourself if you're handy with machine work, have one made at a machine shop, or shop around to see if one is available for your engine. There are a number of shops specializing in conversions and conversion parts. Do a web search, and look around in these forums. Some of the members here ocassionally do work for other members.

Personally, for lighter weight and easier starting I prefer changing the engine over to a CH Ignitions battery type system. Even if your saw says "electronic ignition", it still has a heavy magneto on it. Some do run the engines with the original ignition system/mag; this is only my preference.

Good luck,
AV8TOR

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don't forget echo! - 8/12/2003 4:48 AM   
balsadust-3


 

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From: neosho, Mo
Status: offline 		HI
One of the guys brought an echo that sig. is converted had it on you of those hanger 9 super sticks not the engine for that model but it got better as the day went on and never did mis a beat. as I said not the engine for that plane but it sure had me thinking it would be nice on a 80 inch champ Im building have a couple of the weed eaters and between your experinces and what I say looks like the next project.

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Echo engines... - 8/12/2003 9:05 AM   
av8tor1977



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From: Lukeville, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		Hi,

I have since moved from my sea level location to a location at about 4500 feet. It gets up to around 90 or so here in the summer, (like now), and that makes for an effective, or density altitude of 8000 feet. At this altitude I find that the 16cc Kioritz is not powerful enough for my Big Low Stick. It will fly, but it is definitely underpowered. I would recommend a 21cc or larger. The older Echo 23.6cc engines are best if you can find them. I am presently mounting a 21cc engine on my Stick, but when I get the time I am going to convert it to a biplane and put a hopped up 25cc Homelite on it that I have converted.

In any case, these gas engines are a blast. There's nothing like going out to the field with nothing more than the plane, a can of gas, and the transmitter. I went down from a 16 oz. fuel tank on my Stick to a 10 oz. I flew the other day until I was absolutely sure it must be out of gas, and when I checked it still had half a tank!! They run rock steady, and with the electronic ignition conversions are very easy to hand start. I'm having a blast with these gassers!

Good luck,
Av8tor

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RC - 8/12/2003 9:16 AM   
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Status: offline 		What brand radio and what servoes are you using? Any special set-ups to prevent radio glitches? Thanks John West MI

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don't forget echo! - 8/12/2003 11:25 AM   
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Status: offline 		Av8tor, that loss of power at altitude is accompanied by a big jump in fuel "mileage". I remember driving to SoCal and back through the high deserts, my car's mileage would jump up at least 5mpg driving through AZ and NM.

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RADIO AND GAS MILEAGE... - 8/14/2003 12:00 PM   
av8tor1977



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Status: offline 		Hi guys,

As for my radio, it's an old Futaba 5 UA am unit. I put shielding on the plug wire that I got off some T.V. coax cable. I'm using a resistor plug, and I enclosed the whole compartment where the ignition system is in tin foil. I mounted the ign. system in the fuel tank compartment. I took the tank out, sprayed the whole area with 3M Spray adhesive, then laminated heavy duty kitchen tin foil in. I then replaced the tank and installed all the ignition gear. I haven't had a single glitch yet, and I have lots of flights on this rig.

As for gas mileage, you must have had a fuel injected car. They will compensate automatically for changes in altitude. Non-computer carbureted cars get much too rich at high altitudes.

Take care,
av8tor

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don't forget echo! - 8/14/2003 12:26 PM   
Volfy



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Status: offline 		Yes, it was my 89' VW Golf GTI with the Bosch CIS-E fuel injection system. I dearly loved that car - saw me through thick and thin with nary a hickup. Finally donated her to the American Lung Association in 2000 when she was truly on her last breaths, with well over 200,000 miles on her clock. Did all the maintenance and numerous mods and repairs myself - turned every nut and bolt on her at least twice. May she RIP.

'Volfy' was what I used to call her.

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VW - 8/14/2003 3:01 PM   
RoyH



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From: Sarpsborg, NORWAY
Status: offline 		Volfy wrote:
Yes, it was my 89' VW Golf GTI

'Volfy' was what I used to call her
----------

So your nick is pronounced "folfy" then ..

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Re: VW - 8/15/2003 12:04 AM   
Volfy



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Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by RoyH
So your nick is pronounced "folfy" then .. [/QUOTE]
That's good. Well, I think of it as 'Wolfy' Americanized (you know, Wolfsburg of VW fame), so it would still be pronounce 'Volfy' according to the Germans.

I also named my dog after the car, except she is 'Volfie'.

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don't forget echo! - 8/15/2003 9:51 AM   
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Status: offline 		av8tor: Thanks for your reply. I have been away for 3 days on a fishing trip. I like your good ideas on the heavy duty tin-foil and how you used it to make a wave proof compartment!!!! Good Idea!!!! Keep up the good work....I know you will. Smooth landings.... John West Mich.

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HI CAPN JOHN - 8/16/2003 11:19 AM   
av8tor1977



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Status: offline 		No problem on your reply. I haven't been able to keep up with the forum like I had been either as I've moved and started a new job. I'm now the manager of an ultralight airport and am finishing up getting my instructors license. I have two 2600' x 100' packed dirt runways to fly off of now, and two 1000' x 100' cross runways, all a few hundred feet from the front door of my house! Damn life's rough!!!

I had bought a real oddball of an engine. It has a real short crankcase and one roller main (crank) bearing. I didn't know what it was, but after checking closely I found it has a 21cc Kioritz cylinder on it. The stroke, and exhaust and cylinder bolt down holes are identical to my Kioritz 16cc, so I am adapting that cylinder to my 16cc crankcase. I have to machine the crankcase out where the cylinder goes in by about .030" (no big deal). The only hard part is that I need to bore the small end of the rod out by about .060" and that rod is HARD!! I'm working on it....

Take care,
av8tor

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don't forget echo! - 8/16/2003 12:25 PM   
BME


 

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Status: offline 		Thats not going to happen without you ruining the rod. It would be better for you to bush the piston with brass sleeves and run the correct pin and needle bearing for the rod.


Keith
BME

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Thanks Keith... - 8/16/2003 9:16 PM   
av8tor1977



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Status: offline 		I have some 6061 T-6 tubing that is a perfect fit in the wrist pin bosses in the piston. Think that would hold up for pin bushings???

By the way, I ended up with four old 23.6 cc engines from that shop for a total of about $40.00!! I'm going to build your stroker motor soon.

Take care,
av8tor

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engines - 8/16/2003 9:54 PM   
captinjohn


 

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Status: offline 		AV8TOR: I rode my bike around to the yard sales that was city wide..(small town) and I saw 2 engines for only a dollar each. One was a mac...the other a Homie!!! I was going to buy them both, but I have too many already for the small hobby area I have. Going to build a big garage soon....need more room!!!! Got to have a place to hide those engines I find!!!!!! Smooth landings---- Capt,n

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Man do I know what you're talking about... - 8/17/2003 11:09 AM   
av8tor1977



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Status: offline 		I've just gone crazy with these gas engines. At last count I had over 20 and I've given a couple away!! Even so, a Homelite or a McCulloch weedie for a buck... I would have had to buy 'em! I have two Homelites and one McCulloch and they are sweeties.

My problem is now my airplane wish list has grown to match the engine collection, and gasser size planes aren't cheap! (And they are pretty tough to hide too.)

Take care,
AV8TOR

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don't forget echo! - 8/18/2003 12:13 PM   
balsadust-3


 

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Status: offline 		Say has anyone figured out what the 23cc that BME refurd to came on ? I have found several of the 21cc variety but just don't know what I'm looking for as far as the 23cc is concerned thanks.

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Echo 23.6cc - 8/18/2003 12:38 PM   
av8tor1977



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Status: offline 		Yes, I found some. The website only shows them as being used in a gas powered drill, but they were used in blowers and such as well. The one's you want are from the mid 1990's. I lucked out and found four of them in blowers in a junk pile at a repair shop.

Here are the model numbers from the one's I got, and they have the good transfer ports: Model PB24LN Type 1E Number 512142

Good luck,
AV8TOR

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don't forget echo! - 8/18/2003 4:45 PM   
balsadust-3


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks a bunch this helps a lot in the hunt.

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And the saga continues... - 8/22/2003 8:42 AM   
av8tor1977



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Status: offline 		Well, as I had mentioned, my 16cc Kioritz powered Big Low Stick was a little underpowered here at my new location with a field elevation of 4200' and temps near 100 degrees. Engines lose power at the rate of about 3.5 per cent per thousand feet elevation. That was enough to take my Stick from being a nice flyer to being rather doggy.

So....

I had a Kioritz 21 cc cylinder lying around, and I decided to adapt it to my 16cc crankcase. The bolt patterns, crank stroke, rod lengths, and piston compression heights are all the same. The only difference is the wrist pin sizes, (and of course the bore size). The wrist pin in the 21cc piston is about .060" larger. I used some 6061 T-6 aluminum tubing to make bushings for in the wrist pin bosses in the piston. This would have enabled me to use the stock, 16cc wrist pin, except the pin was a bit too short. So I used part of a drill bit to make another wrist pin with the original diameter, but the longer length of the 21cc wrist pin. The wrist pin retaining circlips were a bit narrow to retain the smaller diameter wrist pin so I added washers trapped between the new bushings and the keepers to be sure the wrist pin was well retained. I also had to make up a couple of small spacer washers to place on either side of the con rod for spacing. The only other modification was to bore out the crankcase where the cylinder fits in a very small amount. This was only about .030" and only about 1/4" deep, and I did it with a dremel and a drum sander tool.

All in all, it was fairly complicated and I don't recommend it unless you are very handy, or a machinist, but it turned out really well. I rather did it as a challenge, and because I had the parts and the need. It turns the same prop 800 rpm's faster than the 16cc did. That definitely makes the difference in how the model flies!! Hope you find this all interesting...

Take care,
AV8TOR

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don't forget echo! - 8/22/2003 11:25 AM   
balsadust-3


 

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Status: offline 		Yes sounds interesting I have been continplating making a rotory intake for the ryobi's it just seems they are a natural for this style of intake. My major concern is if the conrod would stand up to thlis type of mod. well it may be fun to try anyway.

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don't forget echo! - 8/22/2003 1:13 PM   
Volfy



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Status: offline 		AV8TOR, I don't think 6061 T-6 is good bushing or bearing material. It may be heat treated but it's not very hard or has good wear qualities.

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don't forget echo! - 8/22/2003 10:26 PM   
av8tor1977



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Status: offline 		Yeah, I am not sure how this will all hold up, but I figured it was worth a try. The pin is a fairly tight fit in the bushings I made, so the rotation should be in the rod/wrist pin interface. Time will tell...

I could have had a machinist make up some brass bushings, or had the rod bored out to the size of the larger wrist pin, but I didn't want to spend any money on this as I am going to convert this plane into a biplane and put a 25cc Homelite I have converted on it. It was kind of just a putz around project to see if I could make it work.

Take care,
AV8TOR

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