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YOU SCARED ME FOR A MOMENT... - 9/3/2003 9:04 AM   
av8tor1977



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From: Lukeville, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		But I just checked and my 21cc Kioritz/Echos with plastic flywheel- magnetos all turn the normal way. This is a good thing to check though. Check with MikenLapaz about trying to run props on shafts with left hand threads. It's not fun nor pretty!

Also...

And It Was Flying So Well...

Major bummer. My custom Big Low Stick went to that great airplane graveyard in the dirt. I had that plane for 15 years!!

My 16cc Kioritz converted to 21.2cc was running great. It turned 7500 rpm's with an APC 15x8 here at 4500' and 90 degrees. That was considerably more power than the 16cc had at sea level and I looked forward to the increased performance.

True to the numbers, the Stick was flying great. I was practicing Lomcevoks, and after coming out of the third one, I lost all radio control. Straight down at Mach 20 into the dirt from about 200 feet. The engine survived with nothing more than a trashed muffler, but the ignition system is junk, and of course there's not much left of the airplane. The bad thing is, everything checked out on the bench afterwards, so I don't know what caused the crash. This was only my second flight session here at my new location, so maybe I have some interference gremlins. Guess I need to go to a newer, FM radio system.

So now I'm looking at Hangar 9's new Ultra Stick 120 Lite . Have you guys seen the ads for this plane?? Looks like an ideal "knock around" plane for our gas conversions!!

Take care,
AV8TOR

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Sorry for the confusion guys.... (mine) - 9/3/2003 9:08 AM   
av8tor1977



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Status: offline 		The first part of my last post was meant for another thread.

whoops,
av8tor

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'wake-up' carbs for 21 and 23 cc Echos - 11/2/2003 1:14 AM   
mikenlapaz



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Status: offline 		This thread is just to informative to let it go to archives.

The following are quotes from this thread:
quote:


U/K: The carb is a Walbro WT 74A E3. I have converted one of the engines and it runs pretty strong---20 X 8 MA wood semitar @ 6950
BME :Funny but I find they dont want more than about 25-26 degrees timing. I am going to try a bigger carb and see if it gains more......I put the carb from a g-23 on it and gained some power. Its now turning a 16x8 APC at 9300.

av8tor::In doing some research, most of the 25cc and under engines seem to use the 7.94 mm carb. That would be a 15% increase from what I have, and would probably work well. The exception is the G-23 carb at 11 mm that a lot of people use for more power

zagnut: all my little 21.2 echos came with 8.5mm zama carbs and i haven't tried anything else yet.

volfly:Each venturi size corresponds to an ideal range of flow rate, where it develops the optimum volumetric efficiency. Too small and the engine run out of breath on top; too big and the venturi doesn't develop good velocity to draw and meter fuel well at the low end.

When the weedwackers run out or break the string, they can over-rev with no load on them, so they put an undersize carb on to restrict the rpm. so don't hesitate to play with bigger carbs

Other threads have mentioned using the G-23 carb to wake-up engines like the 25 Homelites as well. Can anyone furnish the walbro ID # for the G23 carb? Wonder how close in size it is to the stock Ryobi 31cc carbs and if there is any big performance differences? Throttle shaft angle in relation to the mounting bolt holes? (for mounting considerations)

BTW: The Echo PB-24LN uses the 23.6cc and shows a WOT 7300 rpm

BME: How's the new 30cc coming? Did the 23cc conversion get permentantly shelved?

< Message edited by mikenlapaz -- 11/1/2003 10:25:13 PM >

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RE: YOU SCARED ME FOR A MOMENT... - 2/20/2004 4:05 AM   
Gowge


 

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Status: offline 		Keith @ BME, have you tried out that tuned-twin expansion chamber/exhaust system on your website yet? It looks really good, but still very compact. I wonder if that style exhaust might work for a single too?

TIA!!

< Message edited by Gowge -- 2/20/2004 1:06:52 AM >

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RE: YOU SCARED ME FOR A MOMENT... - 2/20/2004 5:14 PM   
av8tor1977



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Status: offline 		I too would be interested in a tuned pipe that would work on my hopped up Kioritz 23.6cc engine!

Thanks,
AV8TOR

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RE: YOU SCARED ME FOR A MOMENT... - 3/8/2004 3:42 AM   
Eagle Flyer


 

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Status: offline 		av8tor 1977; Could you update me on your final all up ready to run weight and post some pics of the whole engine. Also the way you did the ignition. iam working on the same setup. Actually I was hoping to make it feasable for a 4* 60 maybe. thanks

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RE: don't forget echo! - 3/8/2004 5:19 PM   
hollbrow


 

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Status: offline 		I have not used an Echo on a plane but have worked on many of the trimmers and blowers- in my opinion, there are not many two cycles made that match the quality of the Kioritz engines. The designs and castings are superb. Generally they are not designed to run as hard as some of the chainsaw engines, but they are very durable- and can be modified to make the HP. They are a bit pricey to go buy a piece of equipment to rob the engines off of though- used is the ticket here- I picked up three of the trimmer power heads at the local mower shop- and made two good engines from them with a minimal of parts. Plano power equipment can get you any echo part at a reasonable price.
HB

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RE: don't forget echo! - 3/9/2004 7:07 AM   
buck1856



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Status: offline 		just a quick thought,i have a person in my town that cleans up yards, trash, garages, ect... scraps out items, junk, whatever. he has given me 6 weedies for free, all with compression and spark.two 25 homys,31 ryobi,1 two ring shindaiwa,2 echos, ect,i was thinking about selling engines cheap. if you guys email me with what your looking for ill see what he has laying around,look for these guys in your town or towns around you or put up flyers or adds for peoples weedies that dont work.tell them you will pick them up from there place.

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RE: YOU SCARED ME FOR A MOMENT... - 3/10/2004 3:46 AM   
av8tor1977



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Status: offline 		TO EAGLE FLYER....

Hi,

I just weighed my complete setup, which is a 23.6cc Kioritz stroker motor with a 25cc crank and a machined spacer under the cylinder. With the ignition sensor and bracketry, prop hub & nut, carb, and my modified stock muffler it weighs exactly 2.5 lbs. on a digital postal scales. On the first run, with no tuning, and running an APC 16 x 8 prop at 4500' altitude and 70 degrees, it turned about 8400 rpms.

For pics, please go to this link: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1294780/mpage_1/key_/anchor/tm.htm#1294780.

Capn John, I still haven't forgotten about those hub pics; I've just been so busy and tired I'm about to drop in my tracks. Will get them on soon, I promise!!

Take care,
AV8TOR

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RE: YOU SCARED ME FOR A MOMENT... - 3/10/2004 3:54 AM   
av8tor1977



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Status: offline 		Note: I modified my rpm quote because I had taken the measurements with a tach (Glo Bee), that measures 400 rpms lower than my new TNC tach. I think I trust the TNC numbers more than the Glo Bee!!! (The TNC agrees with the $500.00 engine monitoring computer on my "real" airplane!)

AV8TOR

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RE: YOU SCARED ME FOR A MOMENT... - 3/10/2004 6:11 AM   
captinjohn


 

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Status: offline 		AV8tor: I got a couple of photos I want to post also. I got to figure out how to shrink em down to post. My old computer junk makes it sloooww!!!! Will keep in touch Capt,n

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RE: YOU SCARED ME FOR A MOMENT... - 3/10/2004 6:11 PM   
ZAGNUT



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Status: offline 		Capt,n the new rcu automatically resizes and adjusts resolution for you! all you have to do is make sure the pic is in jpeg or gif format


dave

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RE: YOU SCARED ME FOR A MOMENT... - 3/11/2004 5:47 AM   
captinjohn


 

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Status: offline 		Zag: I will try it again tomorow. I tried it about a week ago, and got a message file was too big. I will try it in JPEG. Thanks for the tip! Capt,n

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RE: YOU SCARED ME FOR A MOMENT... - 3/18/2004 12:23 AM   
Antique



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Status: offline 		Whice tach, besides the expensive TNC, is reasonably accurate ?

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RE: don't forget echo! - 3/23/2004 8:28 PM   
Steve-o-RCU


 

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Status: offline 		is this right???

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RE: don't forget echo! - 4/21/2004 5:11 AM   
captinjohn


 

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Status: offline 		Come on folks...you are forgetting the Echo Theyare for sure nice engines. Capt,n

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RE: don't forget echo! - 6/6/2004 5:42 AM   
whstlngdeath



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Status: offline 		Here is a Kioritz 23.6cc engine I got that came off of a Echo vacuum/shredder. Nice and light, and I plan on removing the usual extra casting material from the case. A couple of questions, can I use the threaded shaft as shown as a prop hub, and will it run fine with the stock flywheel and mag setup? I don't need lots of power, as this is going into a 80" Robinhood high wing. This is my first experience with a gas conversion, and for the most part, I don't want to invest a lot of time or money on the conversion.

Jesse

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< Message edited by whstlngdeath -- 6/5/2004 8:43:17 PM >

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RE: YOU SCARED ME FOR A MOMENT... - 6/6/2004 8:24 PM   
av8tor1977



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Status: offline 		Hi,

I've been using that nut with stud arrangement to mount my props with no problems. For best power you will want to put a larger carb, but most important is to open up the exhaust by gutting the muffler. That helps the most. I don't make a plate to mount these engines; I put studs in the four holes, and mount these through the firewall with flat washers and lock nuts inside. I can't report on use of the magneto, as I always convert to electronic ignition. It should be fine, though you might need to use an electric starter to fire it up easily.

If this is an older Echo/Kioritz 23.6cc engine, it is one of the best weedie/blower engines to convert. Light and powerful!

Good luck,
AV8TOR

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RE: YOU SCARED ME FOR A MOMENT... - 6/7/2004 12:49 AM   
ZAGNUT



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Status: offline 		with the magneto it should start just fine by hand

dave

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RE: YOU SCARED ME FOR A MOMENT... - 6/7/2004 6:25 AM   
whstlngdeath



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Status: offline 		Thanks guys for the info.
I plan on having a muffler made of aluminum sheet to pretty much the stock dimensions of the original steel one. How much does back pressure matter with these engines? I want to use two pipes coming out of the muffler, or is one pipe enough? The engine will be mounted inverted.
Thanks again,

Jesse

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RE: YOU SCARED ME FOR A MOMENT... - 6/7/2004 7:41 AM   
av8tor1977



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Status: offline 		I use two pipes with 7/16" inside diameter. Not too noisy, and power is good. Noise actually seems less than a muffled .61 glow engine. The gassers have a lower pitched sound and less rpm's, so that helps too. I'm not sure what carb that might have come with, but a larger carb is a good idea on these little guys too. Check with Whacker. 9 or 10 mm venturi seems to work well. I recommend (highly) APC props. Yours will like something in the 15 x 8 to 16 x 6 range.

Good luck
AV8TOR

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RE: don't forget echo! - 6/12/2004 10:17 PM   
hooker53



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Status: online 		Keith, Feel us in on the reed induction that some of the Echo's have!!! I'm thinking about converting a 610 twin but most of the older saws that I have had with reed induction just gave alot of trouble after a while. Should I be leary of the reeds??? Thanks Hooker53

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RE: don't forget echo! - 6/27/2004 4:46 AM   
orthoman


 

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Status: offline 		Hi and I am new to conversions (and RC as well). I have a Kioritz 21.2 cc that I was considering converting for use in a Sig Rascal 110 and was hoping those noble contributors with vastly greater experience could comment on the sutability of this engine for this plane.

If this engine is a reasonable match, I would greatly appreciate someone telling me how to get to the head of the info stream on a specific topic such as this. There is so much info on this site but I find myself jumping around to multiple levels of experience. What I need is to start from the beginning on conversions. I do have a lathe, mill and nice shop and can do extensive mods but really just want to start with the basics to see if this engine will power my new plane and what basic mods are needed to allow it to do so.

If all goes well, I can then proceed to more extensive modifications, but I certainly don't want to be machining pistons and enlarging ports, etc. at this point!

It would appear that I have to cut off the front casting flange from the front case half which should be easy. But basic ideas on carb mods, mounting the engine, length of prop mounting extensions, etc. would be great. I thought about using the pull start housing minus the guts for an engine mount. I could cut lightening holes, etc. and mount it to an aluminum plate for an engine mount.

Thanks so much to anyone who kindly takes their time to reply.

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RE: YOU SCARED ME FOR A MOMENT... - 6/27/2004 10:32 AM   
ZAGNUT



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Status: offline 		ortho, when sig came out with the rascal they recommended the FPE 1.3 for power. and that engine is just the echo 21.2 with electronic ignition and a healthy price tag. if you see the pic on FPE's site it looks like they used a hacksaw to cut the mag housing off the case

you wont get the power of the g-26 or the newer g-23 but do you really want this plane to hover??

for a mount just use four bolts through the firewall into the case or use the bolts to attach an aluminium plate.
make the hub as short as possible but still leaving enough threads for the prop stud, 20-25mm should be plenty.

also read through the "echo on a funtana" thread for lightening tips and the "crank chop" mod.


dave

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RE: don't forget echo! - 6/27/2004 10:42 AM   
mikenlapaz



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From: La Paz BCS, MEXICO
Status: offline 		Welcome That is a fair sized plane. The numbers look good. A lot will depend on performance you desire (others with more experience will have to advise.)

Wingspan: 110" (9', 2")
Wing Area: 1522 sq. in. (10.57 sq. ft.)
Length: 75-3/4" (overall)
Weight: 11 - 13 lbs.
Wing Loading: 16.6 - 19.7 oz./sq. ft.

Working on one (Echo) at present. case trimmed is 700 grams, start adding on the carb and spacer, and an exhaust system, ( I do not worry about noise so mine are just bare deflectors).
Visualize the carb linkage, you may need to make a 'rotator/twister' spacer. A larger carb 9.5mm venturi might be a good start point.

The drawing is just a 'la paz' version of drawing Zagnut previously post or PM'ed. No this hub will not go on an engine. It was the machinist 7 hour experiment. but the timing ring will work on the Ver#2 we hope to have him do next week. We both learned alot today! Any suggestion appreciated. BME's hub looks so neat and the extra meat for the set screws could get reduced......... http://www.bmeengine.com/gfx/50/50pic3.jpg

Do a thread search for Echo this forum, should bring up several which all have some good information, sit back and 'sort the grain from the chaff' and make yourself a word document and save the pics.


Do the mods, bet you will find someone that will want it or use for another plane.

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< Message edited by mikenlapaz -- 6/27/2004 2:54:23 AM >

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