Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (Full Version)

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skylark-flier -> Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (1/28/2008 7:40:23 PM)

Hey guys, I'm going to need a little help here over the next couple months. Saturday afternoon I bought an old scale model of the Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane trainer, and all the advise I can get is going to be appreciated. I'm going to restore her back to flying status, hopefully by June.

Structurally, it's as good as the day it was built - there's not one loose joint and not one piece of broken wood, even though it's very obvious that the plane has flown quite a bit in the past. The covering was a total loss (silkspan & dope), and it's already been removed.

The plane has a wingspan of 56.5" with an 8" chord and she stands 38.5" long, ailerons on the bottom wing only (one of the traits of the "1A"). I have no idea where or when she was originally built, or what company kitted her but the engine bolt holes are 2" across and 3/4" front/back, so she originally had a rather large (physically) engine. As I calculated it, the wings give me 864sq.in. lifting surface (904 minus what the fuselage takes from the bottom wing).

I know absolutely nothing about her history, other than the fact that I think she was once used as a glider towing plane. There's a plywood sheet inside the fuselage just behind the bottom wing that once had something round (1/2" hole dead center in the panel remains) mounted in it and the outside of the panel was doped, like it was in the air/oil the same way the rest of the plane is.

Now, I'm going to REALLY grab at straws for a second. Just in case someone knows anything at all about this particular plane (and this would be the wildest stroke of luck), a bit of info on her; she was originally black with orange wings & elevator, had the numbers N1437D hand-painted on the wings & tail and a ident plaque on the sides under the rear cockpit that read "Paul K Franklin, 1513 Ferndale, Niles Michigan, Phone 616-684-0931

I called the number, it's no longer working.

I'm going to have a couple challenges here. First, the only part of the plane that's missing is the outer wing "N" supports which I'm going to have to re-create. Also, the flying wires will need total replacement but I'm pretty sure I'll get everything I need from Tower for that.

First question: original flying wire set-up was wires through the rib and out at the point the "N" supports mounted. They don't look "substantial" enough to hold up a french fry. They were connected to each other by a 2-sided screw-sleeve (can't remember what it's really called but I've seen them in the catalogs). What would be a better mounting (anchor) for the flying wires? I would think something like the old metal landing gear brackets from the 60's & 70's but I haven't seen anything like them in quite a few years. Any other ideas?

Second question: The time is going to come in the VERY near future where I'm going to be looking at an engine for her. I would think a modern .40 or .45 would more than do the job, but I may be way off. Any ideas what that 2" bolt width originally was, and what might do the job today?

Hey guys, I thank y'all for any help I might get in this little (?!) project. There WILL be more questions coming.

BTW, below is a pic of an original full-size 2T-1A, the model is an exact replica except for having a tail-wheel instead of skid.

Dave W.




Michaelj2k -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (1/29/2008 1:43:16 PM)

How about posting some pictures of your model?





skylark-flier -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (2/1/2008 2:49:27 PM)

Absolutely, Mike! Got several so far in the camera but I'm one of the "older" types and haven't yet gotten into the digital age, as far as cameras go. Going to have to correct that little item in the very near future.

The plane's almost completely stripped down now. The original silk covering was so delicate every time I touched a section my finger went through it. I'll be recovering with either light silk from RSM or medium silk from SIG. I've already sent for the new flying wires and mountings (whole kit available from Tower) and I'm still looking for a fuel tank that will fit in the space available (just 3.5" length but nearly 6" wide) and be big enough to give me some decent flight time. I'd like 10 oz but may have to settle for 6-8 oz due to space limitations.

I could put the fuel tank behind the firewall where there's more room, but that's going to be a true "last resort".

Several people have had the thought that the original engine was an ignition type, which would explain the rather small (for the plane's size) area for fuel tanks and the wide engine mount bolt holes.

Anyway, pics are definitely coming. In the meantime, I'm adding a couple pics of 1B and 1C variants. The 1B has the newer inverted engine and the 1C has a radial.

Dave





Michaelj2k -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (2/1/2008 5:49:54 PM)

Here's a Great Lakes kit that recently sold on Ebay. It is possible that this is what you have. The plans may be available through AMA.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Great-Lakes-Trainer-R-C-model-kit_W0QQitemZ300193470410QQihZ020QQcategoryZ19164QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


Plans are available.
GREAT LAKES 2T 1 A SPORT TRAINER
56" SCALE LINE MODEL PRODUCTS
$ 45.00 25010 44D3




billmod12 -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (2/1/2008 7:37:30 PM)

Just for info, that N number N1437D has been registered to a 1951 Cessna 170A in Sheridan Oregon since 1956. Looking forward to seeing pics! Cheers Bill




billmod12 -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (2/1/2008 7:43:15 PM)

This site has some great pictures http://www.russellw.com/photoalbum/photo_query_results.asp?qManufacturer=cgreat+lakes&qModel=c2t%2D1a




skylark-flier -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (2/4/2008 11:13:01 PM)

MICHAEL!! You're awesome! I'm 100% positive from looking at the photos that this is the same exact aircraft. Can't thank you enough for that one, now I know where the kit originated.

As to the registration #, that doesn't surprise me a bit. I've been in contact with the Pres. of Great Lakes Aircraft and have written permission to recreate the GL logo for the side of the plane. I've also heard from the company historian - photos and history are in the mail from that side of the house.

Engine & radio are on the way.

This critter's gonna fly before June!!

Dave




skylark-flier -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (2/5/2008 4:41:55 AM)

Bill, I thank you for the heads-up on the photo gallery. One of the things I've found out from the GL historian is that many of the 1930's era planes were painted what they called International Red (orange/red combo, leaning to red) with a black fuselage, or the same red and creme, pretty much in the pattern of that red one with the creme "teardrop" on the side of the fuselage. Those two particular color combinations and pattern schemes are apparently the two most common of them all at that time.

Every one of those photos is fabulous though.

One quick note here for all y'all: as you go through that website you might notice there's one 2T-1E model with a 3-blade prop. There are only 2 of these in the world, both owned by the same guy. They're powered by a 700hp TURBINE engine. One VERY unusual GL 2T.

I just happened to find a photo in that group that has the 2 most common schemes, side-by-side. It's below.

Dave




billmod12 -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (2/5/2008 2:55:49 PM)

Dave, That N number you have could very easily have been an N number to a great lakes before 1956. That number is on your plane for a reason it probably has a meaning / attachment to the owner of that model. If you go on the FAA web site and call the registration department they will look it up in the archives and tell you every plane that N number belonged too. It may take them a day or to but they are very helpful. If you have any problems let me know. I used to do research on lost airplanes for people and history. Cheers Bill




Michaelj2k -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (2/5/2008 4:12:35 PM)

There's no need to call FAA requesting an N registration, you can do it on line.

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/NNum_inquiry.asp





billmod12 -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (2/5/2008 9:37:54 PM)

Michael, the last time I was dealing with them I was researching the final desposition of a an old J-3. Since it was no longer registered and its N number had been re-assigned, they had to go to the paper archives and research it. If you had a current N number to a registered plane and wanted to know if some other plane from the past had this N number they had to go to the archives and research that N number. At the time all Archive request had to be made by phone or snail mail request. I just felt like that N number could / may have belonged to a great Lakes in the past. How ever if it did it would have an NC before the number but when the C was dropped the renewal would be just an N. I forgot when it was that the C was dropped but I don't remember much after 3 days anyway. Cheers Bill




skylark-flier -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (2/6/2008 5:06:51 AM)

Hey Mike, I thank you for that link. I just sent out a note to them to see if there was ever a 2T-1A with that registration #. We shall see what we shall see.

Also, the company historian just sent copies of the original factory 3-views & specs for the 1931 1A model, the 1E model and the 1935 design, which had enclosed canopies and was never produced.

Dave




skylark-flier -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (2/20/2008 6:56:57 AM)

Hi y'all - got a quick update on progress with the 2T-1A restoration.

FAA is sending me a listing of all the registration numbers that have ever been assigned to the 2T-1A, along with the dates they were assigned. This will help some in the "authentication" of the plane.

Radio is installed - works just fine. Futaba 6-ch computer-type (using 4 channels). I went with a computer radio after talking to a couple locals that have flown biplanes - they said the mixing of aileron & rudder with bipes is a really nice thing, and I have one on my 34-year old Sr. Falcon and have always liked the way she performs with it. The engine has arrived (Fox .45 w/propshaft extension & muffler with extension) and will be installed as soon as I've put some run-time on her. Still waiting for the custom fuel tank which should be here shortly. I did go for the external muffler, simply couldn't find anything that would fit inside the cowl (darn).

Still haven't decided exactly what I'm going to cover her with yet. I'm kinda hemming and hawing over SIG Coverite or silk, will definitely be using SIG dope to paint her because that's the dope I've got the most experience (all good experience) with and I know what to expect with it.

I'm still looking for flying wires. I know I saw them somewhere, in one of the on-line websites, just haven't been able to re-find them.

Pictures of the plane as it was when I got it, the tear-down and much of what's been restored are being developed, will be up in a day or so.

OH! A quickie question; SIG has decal paper (water-slide type) in sheets. Has anyone ever used this stuff? How would I go about getting my Great Lakes logo onto it (?printer?) and new FAA numbers, "NO STEP" notices, etc.?

Well, that's about it for right now. Pics coming as soon as I get them.

Dave




skylark-flier -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (4/22/2008 9:19:03 PM)

Well y'all, I finally went and got a digital camera so I could take some pics of the Great Lakes that I'm restoring - got a few of the first pics included here. This is the plane that I got in the yard sale a couple months back. She was pretty sad looking when I got her, she's even sadder-looking right now but a lot of work's been done already - there is no more broken wood and all the joints are strong again. Nose is still off (new one bring made that will look more like they're supposed to look) and an awful lot of work is still to be done in the engine compartment before the new one goes on again. Then I'll finish working the cockpit area, re-cover and repaint, install REAL flying wires (craft wire is on it right now to check my anchors), and she'll be ready to go.

Anyway, I wanted y'all to see my first biplane as she progresses on the long road back to life again.

Dave




billmod12 -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (4/22/2008 11:09:38 PM)

Very nice!!!! Even pretty in its current state!! I assume we will be flying in a couple of weeks! Right?




skylark-flier -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (4/23/2008 7:36:19 AM)

Actually, I'm aiming for mid-June, so it really isn't all that far off. The engine arrived awhile ago (picked an OS-40 instead of the Fox46) and has been run quite a bit now, so that's ready to be installed. The fuel tank's ready to go and will fit perfectly once I carve just a bit (1/8" on each side, about 1/2" deep) from the rear of the engine compartment for it to fit in the original space,

Also, my wife had the idea that a pitts-style muffler would work if I was willing to cut out the right side of the nose to fit it into. She thought I could paint it to match the rest of the nose and it might not be all that out-of-place. The more I thought about it, the better her idea sounded so I got one and started carving out the side. Got a pic of that work, but it isn't real clear - it's blown up from one of the original pics I took so it's a bit fuzzy. Right under the red marker you can see some of the carving which will extend to take in the marker too eventually. So far, the muffler (sitting right under the plane in the 2nd pic here) fits nearly flush with the side of the fuselage so it's looking like she might just be right in her thinking. I'll cut down the exhaust pipes a bit more too, probably going to take about 1/2 off. The cowl's cooling fins are operational and I wanted to keep them intact if I could - this will allow that too.

You can also see the new anchor blocks just to the right of the marker. Due to the plane's age the cowl had spread out and I've now got short dowls on the cowl that insert into the engine plate - it's pretty well aligned again now. I'm aiming to have the whole engine compartment completed by end of April.

Actually, everything has arrived (including 2 flying wire kits) to finish the plane - except the actual covering. I got some Dave Brown Skyloft - I'm not happy with it at all. I built a mock wing upper half to try it out on, can't get the stuff to shrink properly at all so I'm still looking. Any ideas on that score? I could go with my tried-and-true favorite, medium silkspan, but I'd really rather have a cloth-type material that's tougher. I've thought about SIG Koverall, but I'm not sure about their "heat shrinkable" feature. We fly out of a field that has a tendency to put punch-holes in silkspan & monocote - I'd like to find something that doesn't hole so easily.

Anyway, things ARE progressing.

Dave




billmod12 -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (4/23/2008 12:59:44 PM)

Search the forum for covering. Sig Koverall seems to win out on strength. Here is one link. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_5520765/tm.htm




Avaiojet -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (4/29/2008 2:20:41 PM)

Dave,

Kudos for taking on this project. Bi-planes of that era are one of my favorite airplanes. Besides everything else! :)

You mentioned the Lakes "logo"

I might be able to help you with that. For no charge.

Any tight photo or drawing will do.

I can probably produce a graphic or spray mask from that.

Let me know if you need assistance, as I said, I'll be glad to help if I can?

You have a great model there. Good luck!

Charles

www.cfcgraphics.com




skylark-flier -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (4/29/2008 5:35:58 PM)

Charles, I thank you kindly for your offer - and I'll be more than glad to take you up on it.

I have OUTSTANDING renditions of the Great Lakes company logo right here on my 'puter (taken directly from the company website with the owner's permission), along with an e-mail from John Duncan, owner of Great Lakes Aircraft Mfg Co., giving me full permission to recreate it for the plane. Can PM all of it to you, if you like.

Basically, what I want to create is a 1.5" - 2" high version of it but I've never tried using that water-slide decal paper, don't know quite what to expect. As you've probably got that experience, I'd be more than happy to take advantage of it.

I've got the "A" model (same as N107C, the blue & white in the pic, below) but I want to more or less copy the paint scheme that's on NC841H (the black & orange "B" model with the upgraded engine) and use the logo style that's on NC647K (red & tan, a "C" model with the radial engine).

Dave




skylark-flier -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (5/14/2008 11:21:57 AM)

Well y'all, I actually went and tried the SIG coverall - can't praise it highly enough. This is the covering I should have had 30+ years ago, it's incredible.

Just asking, years ago there was a fuel proofer from either Testors or Aerogloss, was simply painted over decals, etc., and nearly nothing could get through it. Anything like that on the market today? What's the normal method of fuel proofing decals these days (water-glue type) ?




skylark-flier -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (5/21/2008 11:11:05 AM)

Just a quickie update here. She's completely covered and has at least the first coat of clear everywhere. Wings are totally finished.

She's really starting to look like an airplane again.




mobyal -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (5/24/2008 12:26:29 AM)

A really good thread. Llet us know about the maiden. May drive up the Valley to see it...
Al




mobyal -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (5/24/2008 12:27:38 AM)

Oops. Meant DOWN the Valley! [:D]
Al




skylark-flier -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (5/26/2008 4:38:27 PM)

Hey Al, you're definitely invited!!! No doubt about that. And most definitely, BRING A PLANE OR 2 OR 3 OR SO!!!! We fly from the town park, called "Imagination Station". It's a combo multiple baseball park, soccer field, kids climbing park and lots, LOTS of open territory - all surrounded by pasture and cow fields.

Also, got a few more pics available here - covering the past month's work. She's almost done with the paint job, just got the letters to put on the vertical fin and the rudder's scallops to go now.

Once that's done she'll go completely together for the flying wires and a bit more work in the engine compartment - I'm trying to make the fuel filler and overflow lines accessible without showing too much on the outside - and still NOT have to remove the cowl to refuel.

Then she'll be pretty much ready to go.

Dave

below pics: bottom wing being covered(2), top wing covered, fuse being covered, partly painted(2) - - A couple of them are a bit fuzzy. Sorry 'bout dat - low capability camera.




mobyal -> RE: Restoring an old Great Lakes 2T-1A biplane (5/30/2008 2:50:22 AM)

Dave -
Let me know, and I'll try to be there. Might bring a plane or two also!
Al




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