RE: Wild Hare Edge 540T V2 Build / Review  
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RE: Wild Hare Edge 540T V2 Build / Review - 2/29/2008 3:27:39 AM   
Tired Old Man


 

Posts: 11537
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Central, CA, USA
Status: offline 		I used to have the pink one. Wonderful flying bipe!!!

One day I forgot to check the aileron linkage... When the flutter happened it took less than 1 second at idle on a 45 degree down line to shred both wings Fortunately the high rate elevator was enough to hold the nose at a relatively shallow angle, saving the engine from getting toasted.

The reason I related the above was to reinforce Tom's statement regarding flutter.

_____________________________

If you can''''t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

(in reply to TexasSkyPilot)
       Post #: 51

RE: Wild Hare Edge 540T V2 Build / Review - 2/29/2008 12:31:48 PM   
TexasSkyPilot


 

Posts: 684
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Yep. By the time you realize it's flutter, it's toast. After 30 years of flying, I won't say I've seen it all, but nothing surprises me, because nothing is really new. Airplanes have this unspoken set of rules. Once you color outside the lines you can set something in motion that can't be stopped if even that first domino falls over. Like failing to check your aileron servo linkage. How many years had you been flying when you did that? And how many newbies had you taught to fly and beat the pre-flight check into their heads before?
Break one rule, step outside one line, and kiss your bird goodbye. We've all been there. How often have you heard THIS? ; "I think the RX and most of the servos can be salavaged...the shaft is bent pretty bad, though..."

It's the small things that can kill a bird most quickly...they become BIG things real fast. Thorough preflights, going over your bird before and after every flight, doublecheck if you've had it opened up since last time out....

Guys ask me why my planes never crash. I'm never the first one on the flight line, I'll tinker with that bird until I'm happy with everything. If I'm not feeling good about something, it doesn't leave the ground. I NEVER run my batteries down and try for one-more-flight. I'll spend two months more than anybody else does setting up a bird. I will actually do math calculations to determine which hole in my servo arm will strike the best balance of NOT overstressing the servo and still giving the throw I need. For instance (it doesn't always require math), if you've got your linkage on the shortest hole in your servo arm, it would be nearly impossible to strip out that servo's gears. But that also shortens your throws on the other end of that linkage. The trade-off there is VERY precise control. For each hole you move out from the servo arm center, things go the other way. You get more throw, but the servo works harder, and precision drops to some degree.
I can GUARANTEE you that I could throw some old (not new) JR 507 servos in this Ultimate and go fly it successfully for quite some time. Not as a 3-D machine, and not as a real extreme monster. But my servos would not fail, and it would fly nicely and do some aerobatics. And it wouldn't flutter. I know this all the way to my heart.

WILL I use 507's in it? No. I'll use all JR servos, though, and I'll determine an appropriate mix for the surfaces between the JR 8611As and the JR ST126MGs, more than likely. Just the way I'm doing it here in my Edge. And you never know, I could end up using 4 servos in the ailerons or something like that. Once I factor the stresses and run the numbers, of course. That's just Jim......


J

P.S. .....I beat the snot out of them in the air. The Missing coating on my rudder tops ain't hangar rash.....

< Message edited by Mainer_Jim -- 2/29/2008 12:55:24 PM >

_____________________________

Coming toward you, rightside up or upside down, the low wing gets the stick. Thats THE LAW and it never changes, EVER.

(in reply to Tired Old Man)
       Post #: 52

RE: Wild Hare Edge 540T V2 Build / Review - 2/29/2008 11:22:03 PM   
85bipe


 

Posts: 26
Joined: 4/5/2004
From: Murray, KY, USA
Status: offline 		Hey Jim, You will like the way the 540 Edge flys. I just sold an older one and will order a new one here pretty quickly. I love to hover ,water fall , elevator. knife edge and all that stuff and the Edge does it all great. By the way the Ultimate does it even better!!! ! I have one for sale, you tried to get me to ship it to you but I don't like to ship a big plane. Gary

(in reply to TexasSkyPilot)
       Post #: 53

RE: Wild Hare Edge 540T V2 Build / Review - 3/1/2008 12:27:25 AM   
TexasSkyPilot


 

Posts: 684
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: offline 		No big deal, Gary,

Can't blame a fella for trying. Once I went and looked I found out they have a purple, teal, rasberry-pink and white one which I think is an awesome color scheme, the best of the bunch. Apparently many guys won't fly a plane with pink on it.....I heard that and I laughed my butt off! Colors are colors, everybody likes certain colors. I like good colors and really good visability.
Yes, I would have liked your yellow scheme Ultimate, but I'm gonna LOVE this one! Mostly, I can't wait to fly it! I thought yours was a little expensive. Don't get me wrong, I didn't say it's not WORTH it, nobody knows better than me how much we put into these before they ever see a flying field. It's just been my experience that on a good day you can get about half of what you put into a plane...unless you find somebody who know exactly what they're looking at and REALLY wants one....(like I did).... I hope you find somebody within driving distance of you who does. I have a suggestion. You can look up clubs in your area on the AMA website, and contact their contact people and ask if you can send them something to put into their newsletter. Most of them have a section where the models are being sold, and you could send them a photo and they can put it into their newsletter and in their websites too. It's worth a shot, and they're all within driving distance, and they all fly R/C.

Jim

_____________________________

Coming toward you, rightside up or upside down, the low wing gets the stick. Thats THE LAW and it never changes, EVER.

(in reply to 85bipe)
       Post #: 54

RE: Wild Hare Edge 540T V2 Build / Review - 3/1/2008 12:41:22 AM   
R.J. Rose Ocala FL


 

Posts: 79
Joined: 6/4/2002
From: Ocala, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Gary -

I made a couple of inputs into this thread and also have a V2 Edge. I gather the Edge you sold was an older V1 version. How was it in knife edge? Mine has a very strong coupling in the pitch axis, particularly as rudder is added for loops or high alpha knife edges. I don't like mixing, prefering to deal with all the warts and blemishes. I have to use a lot of elevator to overcome the rudder coupling in high alpha knife edge.

RJ

_____________________________

RRose, Cincinnati

(in reply to 85bipe)
       Post #: 55

RE: Wild Hare Edge 540T V2 Build / Review - 3/1/2008 3:04:35 AM   
Tired Old Man


 

Posts: 11537
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Central, CA, USA
Status: offline 		The more aft the cg, the more the pitch coupling.

An Edge set up for crazy 3d will have a bunch of KE pitch coupling, and a lot of roll coupling if too much rudder deflection is used. A low rate elevator mix of 10-12% is not uncommon. A high deflection mix could get as high as 18%. That's where a lot of people run into problems. They set up the rudder to have 45 plus degrees of deflection and run into bad coupling issues when they hit the stops at high rate. Set them up with a max of 40 degrees and a lot of trouble dissapears while the performance increases because of less drag and yaw.

_____________________________

If you can''''t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

(in reply to R.J. Rose Ocala FL)
       Post #: 56

RE: Wild Hare Edge 540T V2 Build / Review - 3/1/2008 4:11:16 PM   
85bipe


 

Posts: 26
Joined: 4/5/2004
From: Murray, KY, USA
Status: offline 		Mine tuck to the belly just a little. Before I put in mix I had to add a touch of up elevator to keep it tacking straight. I think all the mix I add was about 2-3 % and about the same on on alirons.I was my favorite plane.I wanted to try the V2 because I heard they improved it alot on wieght and flying.Enough on other planes this is a build review?Back to you Jim.

(in reply to Tired Old Man)
       Post #: 57

RE: Wild Hare Edge 540T V2 Build / Review - 3/1/2008 9:00:24 PM   
TexasSkyPilot


 

Posts: 684
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Don't worry about that, it's all good stuff about this particular model. That's why we're here. Besides, my new canister won't even be available for an estimated 3 weeks, and that means that I'm about 4 weeks away from resuming that part of the build. Might as well talk amongst ourselves. If ya got 'em, smoke 'em......

There's a little irony here I'll share with you. I waited 2 weeks at the hobby shop for a Hangar 9 Extra 260 and then was told that they were backordered for at least another two weeks, so I went and shopped and bought the Wild Hare with the TOC 53CC Combo...and now, here I am all revved up and parked in with nowhere to go for maybe 4 weeks. This is not a big deal, though. I'm just looking things over to determine what alternative item I should work on for the build in the meantime. I'll have it figured out by tomorrow, and a friend ( a new friend) who contacted me through this build and who lives just 20 minutes away will be dropping by tomorrow and we'll be digging in and I think we'll be doing some work on it. He also has a Wild Hare Edge 540, his is still in the box and he brought it here from Florida when he moved here. Talk about getting some real hands-on experience and learning how to build your own model up at the same time!
I have a question about Graph Tech landing gear. Do they stamp or mark their gear? Is their Edge 540 gear for the Wild Hare Edge more than 2 inches narrower? I bought some (I was told Graph Tech) gear from a guy here on RCU. It's beautiful, but unmarked, and although the height is identical, they are 2 and a 1/4 inches narrower. I got them cheap, so no big deal, and I like the polished Luminum Gear anyway. Yes, I know how to spell aluminum.

If I get to anything today in the Edge I'll post the photos.

Jim

_____________________________

Coming toward you, rightside up or upside down, the low wing gets the stick. Thats THE LAW and it never changes, EVER.

(in reply to 85bipe)
       Post #: 58

RE: Wild Hare Edge 540T V2 Build / Review - 3/2/2008 12:20:26 AM   
R.J. Rose Ocala FL


 

Posts: 79
Joined: 6/4/2002
From: Ocala, FL, USA
Status: offline 		Pat -

My CG is right in the middle of WH spec, it requires just a breath of "down" elevator while inverted. The roll coupling to KE is very slight, but pitch coupling very strong. I have the WH 120 size Extra 260 and the pitch axis coupling is almost non-existent. I know they are different aircraft (wings and maybe rudder). I had a 29% Aeroworks Edge and the pitch axis coupling to rudder was pretty benign.
I hadn't noticed the strength of the coupling until I recently started doing high alpha knife edge. Of course, this required high rudder deflection where the strong pitch coupling became apparent. I was a bit surprised, but won't mix it out - for personal preference reasons I don't use mixes, preferring to flight trim out bad characteristics where I can and just live with them if I can't. I don't use snap roll switches, flight mode switches or any other "helpers" either - just a matter of personal preference. I'll never be a competition flyer, so am only interested in improving my own abilities to handle the aircraft's natural capabilities. I guess most of the really great competition flyers use all the switches available on the TX for mixes and flight modes, at my age I'll never be great (goal is to become VERY mediocre!).

RJ

_____________________________

RRose, Cincinnati

(in reply to Tired Old Man)
       Post #: 59

RE: Wild Hare Edge 540T V2 Build / Review - 3/2/2008 12:59:17 AM   
Greg Cothern



Posts: 594
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: Seagoville, TX, USA
Status: offline 		This maybe a dumb question, you say it has strong coupling pitch? For my own knowledge, could that be caused by too much throw in either the rudder or the elevator, causing it to over pitch?? Just curious.

_____________________________

Some of the products I like
Smart-Fly Hangar 9 Wild Hare MVVS & DA Engine''s Futaba Radio Hitec Digital Servo''s

(in reply to R.J. Rose Ocala FL)
       Post #: 60

RE: Wild Hare Edge 540T V2 Build / Review - 3/2/2008 6:40:31 AM   
Tired Old Man


 

Posts: 11537
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Central, CA, USA
Status: offline 		Note he mentioned that the worst was in high alpha KE. That is exactly where you would anticipate more coupling due to much larger rudder deflections and more propeller "P" factor. The prop's angle of attack is changed significantly, the plane is fluing pretty close to the back side of the power curve, and the greater rudder deflection is inducing much more drag. No big deal really since most use a multi point mix to offset the coupling

R.J., I understand your feelings about mixes and condition switches. I used to be the same way but 3D flying made using them much more agreeable for me. Flying is all about having fun so do it the way you have fun and don't sweat the switches

_____________________________

If you can''''t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem.

(in reply to Greg Cothern)
       Post #: 61

RE: Wild Hare Edge 540T V2 Build / Review - 3/2/2008 11:31:55 AM   
TexasSkyPilot


 

Posts: 684
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: offline 		I'm with RJ on this, as I don't fly 3D. Not yet anyway. I like the natural flying methods and I don't typically do any mixing, and I enjoy exercising the manual pilot skills and keeping myself honed that way.

I don't hang out with any3-Ders, there are none in northern Maine that I know of, in fact the gasser guys in southern Maine fly IMAC but not 3D. Perhaps once I complete my move back to San Antonio I'll have the chance to hook up with some guys who can give me pointers on 3D. I was there for two weeks in January and saw a guy flying 3D at my favorite field there, so I know there are some there. We'll have to see how that goes.
Until I "Learn" what the benefits of that are and it becomes clear that it's better to do that than to balance the plane and hone my manual skills, I'll stick to trimming the plane CG and balance and keeping my thumbs sharp.
As near as I can tell, learning to fly serious 3D is about the same thing as learning to fly a Helicopter, it's a whole new set of rules and disciplines, and you have to train your eyes and hands to look for and respond to a whole new additional set of plane responses.

Jim

_____________________________

Coming toward you, rightside up or upside down, the low wing gets the stick. Thats THE LAW and it never changes, EVER.

(in reply to Tired Old Man)
       Post #: 62

RE: Wild Hare Edge 540T V2 Build / Review - 3/2/2008 2:12:59 PM   
rctom



Posts: 5199
Joined: 5/8/2002
From: Flower Mound (near Dallas), TX, USA
Status: offline
quote:


Wild Hare with the TOC 53CC Combo...and now, here I am all revved up and parked in with nowhere to go for maybe 4 weeks. Jim


Jim:

What is it that you are waiting for that is supposed to be 4 weeks out? As far as I can tell all that we owe you is the engine and that will be here Tuesday.

Did I make a mistake? Is there something else that is owed?

TF

(in reply to TexasSkyPilot)
       Post #: 63

RE: Wild Hare Edge 540T V2 Build / Review - 3/2/2008 5:14:37 PM   
TexasSkyPilot


 

Posts: 684
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Hi Tom,

When I ordered the Wild Hare Ultimate I also wanted to get a TOC 533 Canister for the Edge I'm building here, I don't remember about the canister availability, but you told me the headers would be available in about 3 weeks, and of course I added the shipping time to Maine on to that, about a week. We were going to talk about whether front exhaust or rear exhaust would be best for the Edge. I know I could use the stock muffler, which seems by the way very substantial and probably isn't too awful loud. But I'm not in that big of a hurry, and I'm sure I can do other items on the build while I wait. I don't remember if you had one in stock, but I asked for a 6-hole drill template for the propeller from you as well.

We talked about what kind of exhaust the Ultimate would handle, it sounds like the Brisson wraparound Pitts style is probably the best I can expect to get in the limited space the Ultimate has. But I hadn't committed to that yet, since I'm not building it until after I finish up the Edge.

It's a good reminder about the Edge canister, though. I should poll the guys and ask what their take is on front canister exhaust versus rear canister exhaust. At this point, my only thought on it is that the front exhaust probably requires less cutting out. Is the power the same? If it is and there are no issues like one heating up more than the other, then I'll probably just go with the one that requires the least cutting and fitting, as long as it's out of sight.

Other than that, I asked about a getting a virtual cockpit from you.

Jim

_____________________________

Coming toward you, rightside up or upside down, the low wing gets the stick. Thats THE LAW and it never changes, EVER.

(in reply to rctom)