RE: B-36 build thread and free plans

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> RC Scale Aircraft >> RE: B-36 build thread and free plans

Page: << < prev 9 10 11 12 [13] 14 15 16 17 18 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 7/17/2008 2:59:59 PM

FlyerInOKC

Posts: 382
Joined: 11/17/2004
From: Oklahoma City, OK, USA
Status: offline

Mike, you will find BIG MIK's projects on the RCMF website.

Mike

(in reply to Boomerang1)

Post #: 301

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 7/18/2008 12:19:14 AM

xb36

Posts: 280
Joined: 2/15/2008
From: White Bear Township, MN, USA
Status: offline

I usually answer posts fairly quickly, if for no other reason, to show that I value comments and suggestions.

The post from Ed Clayman of FliteMetal / ScaleAero was nothing short of a complete surprise. His offer is very generous and I wanted to think it over for a few hours before making a reply.

First, I spoke with Ed on the phone for a while this morning. He is extremely knowledgeable about almost everything RC. I think the nature of FliteMetal likely brings him in to contact with builders that are way out of my league. I listened to Ed for a while. He liked to talk and I like to listen. I would still be listening to him but I did have to get back to work.

I told Ed that I had 2 concerns about his product: weight and my ability to achieve a reasonable result. My current plan is to glass, fill, sand, and paint the surface. Ed said that FliteMetal is lighter than painting. If I add in a small factor of bias on his part, it seems reasonable to me that the weight difference is minimal. If there is no bias on Ed's part, then there are no weight issues to be concerned with regarding FliteMetal. So one concern down, one to go.

I have mentioned a few times in this build thread that my covering experience is limited to heat shrink plastic covering. So putting a presentable finish on a sheeted surface by someone without this type of experience would be a true testimonial to the ease of using FliteMetal. I would sum it up that if I get presentable results, then everyone else should too.

Ed suggested that I review the "How To" section of his website www.scaleaero.com which has plenty of information. Too much for me to read in detail while working. I did finish scanning through it a few minutes ago and I was left with "I can do that!" attitude. I think the real issue is that I will need to get a fairly good finish prior to applying the FliteMetal. The shiny nature of FliteMetal might amplify any surface irregularities. I should also note that I also had some questions regarding radio interference and surface bubbles but his website answered those questions just fine.

So if there isn't a weight issue and after scanning his website info I think I can do it, AND combining it with such a generous offer, I am going to take Ed up on his offer. You might say that Ed is the one taking the big chance here. The results will be posted here for all to see and judge. I don't want to be embarrassed either so I will do my best.

In an earlier post I estimated 1.5 pounds for covering. If the MinWax glassing process saves weight, and the FliteMetal product is lighter than paint, then I'm on a roll and achieving the 13 pound RTF weight should be attainable.

So back to Ed's offer. I think that I am still going to practice glassing on the A-26 wing first. The next logical step would be to practice apply FliteMetal to the A-26 wing and post the results. Ed offered to supply FliteMetal for the B-36. I would feel better if I will purchase enough FliteMetal to cover the A-26 wing. If that goes well then I will feel ok with taking Ed's FliteMetal for the B-36. I will have to change cameras so that I can get the close up photos in focus

I guess that's about all that comes to mind right now. I still have plenty to get done before covering the B-36.

Thanks for the offer Ed!

Comments welcome.

Mike Roerig
mikeroerig@gmail.com

(in reply to FlyerInOKC)

Post #: 302

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 7/18/2008 1:23:48 AM

FliteMetal

Posts: 1217
Joined: 10/9/2002
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline

Mike:

Glad you have accepted my offer to enable you to make your B-36 a Flite-Metal poster child. He was correct in describing who did most of the talking during our phone call...I felt I had to cover...excuse the pun...several aspects of his project to ease his concerns. It is true, weight is always a consideration with any model, much less a scratch scale project. However with three par projects as proof of the pudding, Mike has plenty of evidence his B-36 will perform prototypically given the maneuvers it is intended to perform.

As for preparing your B-36's surface, you need only prepare it as if to paint by applying .6 oz.sq.yd. glass cloth with 50% diluted ZAP Finishing Resin with 90% by volume denatured alcohol. Denatured alcohol diluted Finishing Resin reduces viscus mass permitting it to wick to the cellulose core of your 1/16th sheeting for greater (T&C) tension and compression. Apply the Z-poxy Finishing Resin with a 3" wide foam paint roller purchased at WalMart. Yes, it comes as a kit with I believe three foam rolls, the handle and tray for liquid. The foam roller application prevents applying too much resin as you are using the roller evenly distribute a minimum amount to adhere the glass to and into the sheeting.

This process requires an overnight cure for each side of wing and fuselage. You first cover the bottom up to say 70% of the side of the fuselage, then the top down "the next day". Cover the wing bottom to just beyond the leading and trailing edges of "unhinged" control surfaces of wing top. Cover the balance next day "after" wiping entire glassed surface down with denatured alcohol to remove parafin released during cure of epoxy. Click here for a very good how to for laying the light weight cloth onto your airframe and priming it:

http://www.rc-tech.net/fiber/fiber.htm

Now, show us how its done...

< Message edited by FliteMetal -- 7/18/2008 1:46:07 AM >

_____________________________

Ed Clayman
http://www.FliteMetal.com

(in reply to xb36)

Post #: 303

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 7/18/2008 6:35:54 AM

Boomerang1

Posts: 844
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: Sydney, AUSTRALIA
Status: online

Wow, that's a great offer from Ed for the FliteMetal. The Chinese TU-4? looks stunning as do many models I have seen in magazines & on the net covered in this material, nothing looks more like metal than metal!

But you were correct Mike, you have to establish a good solid finish on the model prior to applying the FliteMetal, as Ed mentions ready to the point at which you would normally paint it.

The glue/brown paper method does the same thing as the fibreglass under the FliteMetal, it SEALS the wood hiding the grain & provides the basis for paint.

How's this for an idea? Try the paper on the A-26 wing or something less valuable so if you stuff it up it doesn't matter. I can guide you through it step by step. If you decide the method sucks that's fine but at least give it a try. Keep in mind you will have to paint it once covered, the FliteMetal will be the final finish apart from markings if you go that way.

If you do not like the result you always have Ed's generous offer. Whatever you choose I guarantee you film covering will be second choice from this point on. - John.

_____________________________

Distributor for: Nothing! So my posts can be unbiased.

(in reply to FliteMetal)

Post #: 304

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 7/18/2008 2:00:50 PM

xb36

Posts: 280
Joined: 2/15/2008
From: White Bear Township, MN, USA
Status: offline

I agree, Ed's offer needs to be taken seriously. I agree, those planes look absolutely stunning. I just hope that I can make this one look presentable.

I really haven't considered any heat shrink coverings to be an option for this plane, not even a second choice. A few years back I had a sheeted wing on a glider. It wasn't quite an ARF but it did have a lot already finished when you opened the box. The wing was already sheeted but it was a bit harder wood than balsa. I don't recall which wood. I covered it with a white heat shrink plastic (SolarFilm or SolarTex or Coverite.. whatever it was?). I battled bubbling constantly and never did come up with a good way to prevent them or remove them. I don't want that headache again. So it's going to be sand, glass, fill, sand, FliteMetal. I still have to go through the FliteMetal info in detail. Maybe the fill and sand steps aren't required. That would help with weight.

Now, regarding weight. I did a reasonably accurate measurement of the surface area of this plane and when estimating area I estimated just a bit on the high side. I estimated the surface area of this plane to be 9500 sq inches which is just shy of 66 sq feet. The weight of FliteMetal is listed as .0022222 ounces per sq inch, so 9500 x .0022222 is about 21 ounces. I estimated 24 ounces for the entire covering job if I want to stay on track for the 13 pound target. So if Ed's comment that FliteMetal is lighter than paint, then my 1.5 pound estimate was a bit optimistic. I'm not panic'ing, but I will need to be careful. FYI, the Century Jet Model retracts that I put in this plane are rated for a 15 pound plane. I could have moved up to heavier duty retracts but that would add more weight to the plane. A viscious circle....

So for testing, here's my thoughts....

Cover half of the A-26 wing with glue/brown paper and measure the increase in weight.
Cover half of the A-26 wing topside with glass and the MinWax product and measure the increase in weight.
Cover half of the A-26 wing bottom side with glass and Zpoxy as suggested on the FliteMetal website and note the weight increase.
I can add in my opinions/observations about the differences. I haven't used either method so I shouldn't have a bias.

Finally, cover the glue/brown paper, glass / MinWax, and the glass Zpoxy areas with FliteMetal. Note the weight increase, any differences, and review the visual results.

And plenty of photos of course.

I still have other work to do on the plane but it is nice to have a plan. I probably should have stated earlier, I don't need the A-26 wing. The fuse didn't work out as I expected so I stopped working on it and I have hung it from the shop ceiling as sort of wall art.

That's it for now. Keep the comments and suggestions coming. This is the area where I needed the most guidance.

Mike Roerig
mikeroerig@gmail.com

(in reply to Boomerang1)

Post #: 305

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 7/18/2008 11:00:40 PM

Boomerang1

Posts: 844
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: Sydney, AUSTRALIA
Status: online

Mike, my suggestion was NOT to cover the model in brown paper then the FliteMetal. Sorry if I didn't make it clearer.

As you put on the paper panels they become the panel lines & you just paint over that. For the FliteMetal, & ED will correct me if I'm wrong, you establish a totally smooth finish with no panel lines & then cover with the metal to get the metal look & the panel lines as the metal is applied as individual pieces following the panel line detail of the full size.

FliteMetal in panels over a surface which already has panels sounds like trouble brewing. It's one or the other. - John.

_____________________________

Distributor for: Nothing! So my posts can be unbiased.

(in reply to xb36)

Post #: 306

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 7/19/2008 2:19:38 AM

xb36

Posts: 280
Joined: 2/15/2008
From: White Bear Township, MN, USA
Status: offline

OK, I'll admit that I'm a bit slow from time to time.

I get it now.

So I save a step then.

Mike Roerig
mikeroerig@gmail.com

(in reply to Boomerang1)

Post #: 307

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 7/19/2008 3:32:51 AM

Boomerang1

Posts: 844
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: Sydney, AUSTRALIA
Status: online

No, not really. You still have to prime & paint over the paper so there are probably more steps if any.

I have not used FlitMetal but I wonder how it goes if you make a mistake & have to reposition a panel. I have used something similar, a friend gave me some self adhesive aluminium tape for fire proofing the tail of my little jet. When he had the model the engine coughed, farted out a flame & toasted the tailplane

.

When I bought the model I removed the film, sheeted the open areas of the tail, covered it in paper & added the tape over the paper purely to make it fire resistant. See from the pics I did the bottom surface & wrapped it round maybe an inch on the top.

When this tape sticks it REALLY sticks, if you try to remove it it pulles off everything back to the wood. Looks very 'metally' though! - John.

Attachments

Click to see fullsize image.

Click for fullsize

Click to see fullsize image.

Click for fullsize

< Message edited by Boomerang1 -- 7/19/2008 3:33:53 AM >

_____________________________

Distributor for: Nothing! So my posts can be unbiased.

(in reply to xb36)

Post #: 308

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 7/19/2008 4:40:19 AM

FliteMetal

Posts: 1217
Joined: 10/9/2002
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xb36 OK, I'll admit that I'm a bit slow from time to time. I get it now. So I save a step then. Mike Roerig
mikeroerig@gmail.com

I suppose I should make a few things clearer since you have never painted a model
and never have glassed or laminated with either white glue or polycrylics and Kraft
paper. ; ) You are going to naturally have some reservation and apprehension wondering
if you are doing this or that properly.

I will explain glassing with .6 ounce to the sq yd glass cloth with ZAP Finishing Resin
then maybe Boomberang1 will explain applying Kraft paper to the prepared surface
of a model. In either case, the surface is prepared pretty much the same to yield
something that resembles a smooth metal surface.

1. Sand model surface with sanding block to achieve as smooth a surface as possible.

2. Apply spot putty to the surface of the model to level the surface where necessary.

3. When surface is clear of low spots and divots you clean surface, glass 50% of surface
with diluted epoxy.

4. Trim overlap edges and sand flush with 400 grit dry. Remove parafin by product of
epoxy cure with alcohol per directions.

5. Glass and resin opposite side.

6. Trim overlap edges and sand smooth with 400 grit dry. Remove parafin by product
of expoxy cure with alcohol per directions.

7. Using either water based or lacquer based aerosol rattle can paint spray a misting
spray onto surfaces of plane holding can 18~25 inches from surface then let dry for
no less than one hour.

8. Using either a hardwood or metal sanding plane surface covered with adhesive
backed 320 grit wet dry, sand surface with light pressure across fuselage length
with vertical strokes while held parallel to fuse and across wing parallel to wing
trailing edge "per wing half".

9. With spot putty as a leveling substance, after sanding the mist painted wing the
paint was intended to be removed revealing low spots which should receive a
minimum amount of spot putty spread "beyond" the perimeter of the identified
low spot(s). When spot putty is dried/cured...and only after being absolutely sure
by checking the test spread on a side piece of whatever, using the recommended
grit of wet/dry block sand the area across the surface to level the spot putty to
conform with surrounding surface.

10.When satisfied the surface is relatively flat and obviously it will be smooth by now...
wipe down lightly with a tack cloth prior to spraying surface with two misted coats
of neutral primer. Block sand with 400 grit after primer has cured for no less than
stated time on the aerosol rattle can...I would personally wait 24 hours just to be
sure surface is nice and hard.

11.Block sand until you are satisfied with the surface then tack cloth entire airframe
and set aside for 24 hours.

12.Using a good three view drawing of the B-36, draw panel lines onto the surface
of the model. With a fine point black Sharpie marker and a flexible plastic ruler
longer than the diameter of the fuselage...carefully "replicate" the panel lines on
the three view onto your model surface. Some people prefer using an inexpensive
model of laser line device to project across the curve to permit tic marks to be
placed for perfect alignment of the flexible ruler during the drawing process.. ; )

13.After panel lines are drawn onto airframe, you may begin application of Flite-Metal
after sanding it with 320 or 400 wet to create the proper texture for replication of
your B-36 documentation. Sanding is recommended to occur while taped to surface
of a 1/4 thick piece of aluminum wider than 6" but as long as the longest panel on
the wing, and that of the fuselage. Begin applying to a wing panel to get used to
the process. The wing's flat surface will permit you to achieve the typical per panel
application speed of 30 to 40 seconds after two or three panels.

14.With 3M Scotch Fine Line "mauve green" polypropolene striping tape available online
or a quality automotive paint store...

(NOT BLUE) mask entire "exterior perimeter" of a panel making absolutely
sure the panel line is adjacent to the inside edge of the tape.

15.Cut a length of Flite-Metal or 2 mil construction grade acrylic adhesive backed
aluminum foil wider and longer than the taped panel and carefully peel the silicon
free sheet from back being careful to not let adhesive either contact itself or any
object as it is very aggressive, especially Flite-Metal.

16.Place aluminum over center of masked panel and follow the Flite-Metal application
directions to easily and quickly apply to panel.

17.Burnished with side of soft burnishing tool to distribute pressure over the contact
patch. Use gray end of Sharpie pen and to burnish against hard edge of the 3M
Fine Line tape. Using a curved bladed Exacto or other brand of hobby blade in a
handle draw blade heel-to-toe "point" starting at the intersect point of one panel
side with an adjacent side. Duplicate along panel edges then burnish along panel
edge pressing cut edge down smoothly. Lift waste aluminum and tape from all
sides of panel. Burnish edges to make sure they are flat.

18.Prior to masking next panel, mask a single "inside edge" of the panel you applied.
This must follow the outside edge of the applied panel. Because the 3M Fine Line
is polypropylene it will lay a straight line with no wave with little to no effort. It is
capable of tight curves in its 1/16" width. For your purposes, 1/8th width will work
fabulous. When inside edge of one side is masked then mask the "outside" three
edges of the adjacent panel to form the perimeter and to replicate the application
process. Continue until wing is covered typically from the center trailing edge out
and forward. do not do the leading edge until wing top and bottom are covered.

That's enough for you and everyone else to digest the simple application process.

Now, if Boomerang1 will kindly post the Kraft paper and Polycrylic application process
this will be complete... : )

< Message edited by FliteMetal -- 7/20/2008 3:29:50 PM >

_____________________________

Ed Clayman
http://www.FliteMetal.com

(in reply to xb36)

Post #: 309

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 7/19/2008 4:31:10 PM

xb36

Posts: 280
Joined: 2/15/2008
From: White Bear Township, MN, USA
Status: offline

Ed,

Thank you for the great detailed instruction.

I am now looking forward to covering.

I will practice on this A-26 wing. It has larage engine nacelles that were created with 1/8" planking just like the smaller nacelles on the B-36.

I will let you know when I am ready to cover the A-26 wing. I greatly appreciate your offer to provide FliteMetal for the B-36, but it's my nickel for A-26 supplies. Again, thank you very much.

Boomerang1,

I guess the agressive adhesive means that I will just have to be careful and patient.

You have an interesting plane there with the jet.

Thanks for the added info about painting the brown paper.

Well, I'm working on the flaps and ailerons today. I should have photos soon.

Attachments

Click to see fullsize image.

Click for fullsize

(in reply to FliteMetal)

Post #: 310

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 7/19/2008 6:50:22 PM

FliteMetal

Posts: 1217
Joined: 10/9/2002
From: Houston, TX, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xb36 Ed, I am now looking forward to