RE: B-36 build thread and free plans  
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RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 3/30/2008 4:43:16 AM   
Boomerang1



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From: Sydney, AUSTRALIA
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Is there any reason to use 6 small batteries rather than 1 big one besides them being easier to fit in small spaces?

With one battery charging will be much simpler as will be the wiring & plugs. Don't forget it's not a good idea to charge lipos inside the model. Also, lipos need to be balanced while charging so you will need access for that as well. The 6 speed controllers will need cooling air, the leading edge air intakes on mine actually work feeding air to the motors so if you mount the controllers in front of the motors they could be cooled at the same time.

It would probably be best to hard wire the signal wires to the controllers rather than a huge bunch of Y leads.

I'm not familiar with Moto Calc, I use the TLAR formula. - John.

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RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 3/30/2008 9:27:46 AM   
xb36


 

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From: White Bear Township, MN, USA
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John,

My rationale is this for using 6 small LiPo battery packs.

First, MotoCalc indicates that running thse 6 motors on one pack would cause it to over heat.

Second, I know of a 17 foot span B-36 with glow motors that crashed because the left outboard and left middle motors died during flight. The plane became too difficult to control. My original plan was to use one battery pack to power the left and right outboard motors, a second battery pack to power the middle motors, and a third pack to power the inboard motors. That way a battery pack issue would cause a balanced power loss. I could tolerate the loss of any pair of motors (inboard, middle, outboard) so long as the problem didn't occur on take off.

I could use only 3 LiPo packs and use one pack per motor pair, but the LiPo pack would run warmer and I didn't see a weight reduction by going to 3 packs. You also mentioned that 6 smaller packs MAY be easier to position in plane as compared to 3 packs. The decision to use 3 or 6 packs can be delayed up to the last minute.

You also commented about the location of the ESC's. I had that same concern a couple of weeks ago so I posted a thread in the Brushed/Brushless, Speed Controls, gear drives forum. The post was titled Long ESC wires or long motor wires?

There was a reasonable amount of response and the outcome of the thread was that you should keep the battery leads to the ESC short and allow the motor leads to go long. That recommendation is listed in the manual for a couple of the ESC manufacturers.

Even so, we have to now consider that you have done the reverse and put the ESC close to the motors with longer battery wires. And, you have done so successfully. I agree that allowing the air to pass over the ESC is a good move and you will get more air flow out by the motors. Well now I don't know what to think. I thought that the thread had cleared up that decision. If you don't mind, review the thread and let post your comments.

I must admit again that I have not used LiPo cells. I understand that they must be left to cool completely before recharging and then using them in flight. Although pricey, I expect to purchase another set of cells if this configuration works out. With a second set of cells, I could go out to the field with 2 sets of fully charged LiPo packs. The price keeps dropping so a second set of cells becomes less expensive as time goes by.

No one seemed to concerned about the length of the signal wires to the ESC except me. With a large wing, there had to be some long wires somewhere. I was concerned about picking up too much radio noise. My solution is to purchase a new JR 9303 radio with the Spektrum multi receivers. I think I saw a Spektrum setup using a total of 4 (or was it 3) receivers was around $235. If that stops this plane fron going down due to radio interference then that is what I will do. Go to www.youtube.com and watch the B52 nose in due to radio siglnal loss. All of a sudden the cost for the radio doesn't seem so bad.

Well, that should answer all of your comments. Let me know what you think. Comments from others are always welcome before it gets too difficult to change something so throw your comments in now.

Mike Roerig
mikeroerig@gmail.com


(in reply to Boomerang1)
       Post #: 77

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 3/30/2008 10:39:55 AM   
Boomerang1



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Hi Mike, excuse my lack of knowledge of brushless setups, it's relatively new to me. Common sense tells me to put the speed controllers close to the motors but if others with more experience with these things know otherwise you would be better to go with their advice.

My model, being relatively prehistoric using nicads & brushed motors, uses 2 speed controllers with the motors controlled symetrically like you suggested. Motors 1 & 6 are from one controller, motors 2+3 & 4+5 from the other, really 2 seperate systems, one with 8 cells & the other from 16 cells. The only reason I used 2 controllers is because they are limited to 16 cells each.

Lipo batteries are rated at 'times C' output. An example would be a battery rated at 5 x C continuous, 10 x C peak. What this means is that if battery is 2000 mAh capacity it can supply 5 x 2000 milliamps or 10,000 milliamps (10 amps) continually. Depending on the current draw of your motors you simply buy a bigger capacity battery with the same number of cells. I'll post this now in case it times out

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       Post #: 78

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 3/30/2008 10:48:13 AM   
Boomerang1



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From: Sydney, AUSTRALIA
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FPEVO30-4500 3S 30C 4500 11.1V 135 270 is a cut & paste from a Flitepower batteries supplier.

What it means is: the model number FPEVO30-4500 3 cell battery is rated at 30 x the capacity which is 4500 milliamps which will deliver 135 amps continually and 270 amps for a short burst. LOTS of amps, more than you will ever need. All you have to do is buy a bigger CAPACITY battery with the same number (3) of cells. Of course it will be physically bigger than a smaller pack & it may have to go in the fuselage, probably cheaper than 6 x smaller batteries to.

My speed controllers are mounted in the fuselage along with the batteries, reciever, reciever battery elevator, rudder servos & noseleg servo. What I did do is make provision to move the batteries around to get the CG correct. With the motors hanging off the back of the wing it surprised me when the batteries ended up being as far back as they did. The radome under the forward fuselage has an air scoop in it to allow air to cool the batteries & controllers. Air escapes behind the wing from a hole under the fuselage which is where the radio switch is located.

You should be delighted with that radio, I use the equivalent model hear in Oz although not on the B-36, not on 2.4 but on 36 mhz. I have never had any interferance issues with the B-36. The only precaution I took was to run the motor leads near the trailing edge & the aileron wires at the front of the wing.

Checked the specs on the motors you plan on using, they are much lighter than mine & more than twice as powerfull, I do not think power will be a problem at all.

Have you purchased the props yet or just selected them? Why I ask is that pusher props are not necessary, normal props are fine, just fit them backwards on the motor shafts & run them in the required direction. If the 'special' pusher props have a 'special' price to match you may save yourself a few bucks. - John.

< Message edited by Boomerang1 -- 3/30/2008 11:42:15 AM >


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       Post #: 79

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 3/30/2008 7:08:18 PM   
xb36


 

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John,

I agree, common sense tells me to put the ESC next to the motor, but more than one ESC manual says to do the reverse. I value your successful experience with putting them near the motor, but I will follow the manufacturer's advice and put them close to the battery.

I had just about given up on rc. I put it, and this B-36 on the shelf because if something could go wrong, it did for me. Well, at least it seemed that way and I wasn't trying to fly on an shoestring budget. It was frustrating. The point of this belly aching is that I am going to do this plane as right as I can for the highest probability of success. I will have to get some hours flying this summer. I haven't flown for about 4 or 5 years. The B-36 is just a big glider so I am not too worried.

The battery selection isn't cast in stone or anywhere near that. I will give thought to your good suggestions and lay out the cash for LiPo cells and charger when the B-36 is nearly complete.

A big thanks for you comments about the motors. Yes, the brushless are a lighter and more powerful choice. I value your motor comments because you have a B-36. I wasn't sure how to take in the effect of multi motors. I have a DC-3 (never flown) that I believe has speed 400 motors. I recall thinking that two motors must be more efficient than using a single larger motor. When you take that up to 6 motors, the effect must be even more obvious.

Yes, I have already purchased the 9x7 3 bladed pusher props. They were on back order and took about a month to get. Master Airscrew support seemed to indicate that a prop specifically designed as a pusher would act noticeably different that a pulling prop turned backwards. I wasn't going to argue with them. I needed props and they had them.

As far as ESC's, I have heard of mixed results when running more than one brushed motor on a speed controller. What I have read is that sometimes one of the motors won't start turning unless it is given a bit of push, then they run fine. Again, I am trying to keep the probability of success high on this one.

Well I suppose that I should finish up the wing mount today so that I have some progress to post.

Mike Roerig
mikeroerig@gmail.com

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       Post #: 80

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 3/30/2008 9:51:57 PM   
xb36


 

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Here are some photos showing the bottom of the wing mount area.

The total of the 4 photos will go slightly over the 600KB limit so I will post 2 photos here and 2 photos in the next post.

Mike Roerig

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       Post #: 81

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 3/30/2008 10:01:34 PM   
xb36


 

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Here are the next 2 photos.

Next I will finish up the wing mount. My plan is to secure carbon fiber tubing in to the area where the fuse and the wing meet. I will then use other carbon fiber tubing that will slide inside the secured tubing. Hopefully it all turns out as planned. I will post photos to make this clear.

Mike Roerig
mikeroerig@gmail.com

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       Post #: 82

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 3/31/2008 1:12:51 AM   
xb36


 

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It seems that I don't have enough carbon fiber tubing, well at least the size I need.

I do have enough to work on one area.

Here is a photo showing the tubes in the wing. These will be cut flush with the end of the wing mount and there will be another section of tubing in the fuses former. I have a smaller piece of carbon fiber tubing that fits snugly within the one in the photo.

To mount the wing on the fuse, I will set the wing on the fuse and then slide the smaller tube outward from the wing in to the larger tubes in the fuselage.

It's tough to put clearly in to words. I didn't get as much time to work on this because I kept looking for more of the larger tubing, and I am also working from home tonight with a few things at work that I am keeping an eye on.

I am probably out of time for today. I will post another update when I have one.

I have also spent a couple of hours organizing the CAD files for this plane. Another RCer has volunteered to convert them to DXF format so others with CAD software can rework/improve where as they like.

Mike Roerig
mikeroerig@gmail.com

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RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 3/31/2008 11:50:03 PM   
FlyerInOKC


 

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I would think you would be better off running the power connections back to the fuselage and using two high capcity li-pos tied together with a "Y" harness. You can user the battery position to balance the aircraft and you will eleminate the drag by mounting 6 batteries under the wing. I think everything would much be better off in the fuselage from a drag perspective. This isn't a super light foamy you have here. Small things such as the guide wires and struts on a biplane produce a huge amount of drag. Then comes the protect the radio and batteries receives from being inside the plane.

Mike

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       Post #: 84

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 4/1/2008 1:44:12 PM   
xb36


 

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Mike,

Either I mis-stated or you misunderstood.

I do plan on putting the battery packs inside the fuselage.

In all of my other planes I secure the battery packs somewhere in the center section of the fuselage, and then attach the wing. That means that the wing mount must be strong to handle the weight of the fuselage, the motor, and the battery pack.

In a previous post, I was trying to say that I will secure the battery packs to the bottom of the wing, but yet still inside the fuselage. You might say that the battery packs will 'hang' from the center point of the bottom of the wing. Since the battery packs will not be secured to the fuselage, the wing mount will not have to support the weight of 2 to 6 battery packs.

I began to think of this B-36 as a large flying wing. The weight of the motors is on the wing, not in the nose of a fuselage. The wiring to the motors will be in the wing, not the fuselage. So will the weight of the battery packs, the ESC's, the main gear retracts, and the receiver battery. Well, at least that is the plan if I can get it all to fit.

You were very polite in your comments. If you thought that I was going to place the batteries out on the underside of the wing, there are a lot of impolite ways that you could have said: ARE YOU CRAZY? Thanks for keeping it positive.

I still haven't come to a decision on the battery packs. There are advantages to 6 packs and 3 packs. Actually it is the charging aspect that concerns me the most. More packs take more time, or more chargers. I have heard discussions on paralleling battery packs but I am not yet convinced. Although the packs may be charged very similarly, they will never be equal. The pack with the higher voltage will tend to charge the pack of the lower voltage. There will be some power loss when this occurs. Even so, I will rerun that through MotoCalc and see if it flags any issues. I'm not too stubborn to learn..... yet.

Your comments are always welcome. I see the number of hits climb on this thread and very few replies. It's nice to see that I am not just posting to myself.

Later...

Mike Roerig
mikeroerig@gmail.com

(in reply to FlyerInOKC)
       Post #: 85

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 4/2/2008 1:55:28 AM   
FlyerInOKC


 

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I did misunderstand you but that easily done on my part. I make a point to try to stay positive because you are the one willing to make the commitment of blood, sweat, tears, time, and money to make this model a success. For the time being I am just sidewalk supervising. I have been watching your progress eagarly and I do plan on building this airplane as soon as time and funds permit. I may choose to alter the landing gear design to afford a cost savings but I will keep an open mind on the battery configuration to see how it works out on your airplane. I will confess I am not above learning from my fellow pilot's mistakes or successes. I am sure I'm not the only one that will end up building your design after following your thread I'm just one of the more vocal ones. All of us will owe you a debt of gratitude for sharing with us and trailblazing the path for us! Now get back to work, you are getting close and the suspense is killing us!

Mike

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       Post #: 86

RE: B-36 build thread and free plans - 4/2/2008 2:44:20 AM