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IMAC "BOX" SIZE - 2/17/2008 5:52:37 PM   
gene6029


 

Posts: 53
Joined: 9/15/2007
From: wilson, NC, USA
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Im flying IMAC this year in the basic class and have a question someone may be able to answer for me. While im practiceing, i am told im either flying too close, or not going out on the ends far enough by other seasoned IMAC pilots. My question is why must our planes be out so far (200') or more out front and why do we need to fly so far out to the ends of "the box"? When asking the guys helping me they say things like, " in the upper classes you will need the room for their manuvers". My problem is when i fly out that far on the ends I really cant see whats going on correctly ( wings level ) etc. If im in closer I can fly much better, but am told it LOOKS LIKE im rushing, even tho im not. I lost my cowl on the stall turn at the far end of "the box", and when we located it, it was about 1/4 mile from where i was standing! I fly a 35% 104" ws model and it still looks small that far out there. Im scheduled for a bootcamp & judgeing seminar here in the SE and wanted to see if anyone coud give me a reasonable answer before i get there. Thanks for tolerateing this long post....Gene
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RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE - 2/17/2008 6:41:24 PM   
Flyfalcons



Posts: 6100
Joined: 7/27/2002
From: Bonney Lake, WA, USA
Status: offline 		There's no reason you have to fly all the way to the ends of the box. Tell the local IMAC guys that it's more important for you to see the plane than it is to use every single inch of the aerobatic box.

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RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE - 2/17/2008 7:30:00 PM   
BullardRM


 

Posts: 107
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Gulf Breeze, FL, USA
Status: offline 		There is no box. You now get points for "Airspace Control". Check the sequennce sheets. It sound like you are going to two extremes -- too close, then too far out. You have to find a middle ground that will present the sequence so it will appear smooth and not rushed, but close enough to give good visibility. If you can't see what the plane is doing, neither can the judges, which means lower scores. Its VERY important to "draw lines" between each manuver. Failing to do so will also result in downgrades. Throttle managemet is imperative. Using a lower throttle setting on the horizontals will give you more time to get the best placement for the next manuver, and allow the judges time to get a score down. The judging schools are great and will help you understand what its all about. Most importantly, have fun.

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RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE - 2/18/2008 1:10:34 AM   
exeter_acres



Posts: 6067
Joined: 9/22/2004
From: Johns Creek, GA, USA
Status: offline 		have the "locals" been to a Flying and Judging seminar recently??

and since you are in North Carolina are you going to the Frozen Toes Boot camp?

http://www.mini-iac.com/EditModule.aspx?tabid=77&mid=493&def=Contest%20Viewer&ItemId=1903


All questions will be answered........
also, make sure to read all of the rules... I am amazed at how many people fly IMAC that have never read the rules......

http://www.mini-iac.com/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=90

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RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE - 2/18/2008 11:07:05 AM   
gene6029


 

Posts: 53
Joined: 9/15/2007
From: wilson, NC, USA
Status: offline
Yes, im registered for the frozen toes bootcamp. Also the judgeing seminar in Fayettville. The guys i fly with are pretty current on the rules etc, but i get conflicting answers sometimes or I just dont understand exactly what they are saying. I have taken the time to read thru the rules, but I must be interpreting them differently than others. Hopefully the bootcamp & F&J seminars will clear up some of this for me. I guess my biggest misunderstanding is the airspace control deal. I feel for me anyway its more difficult to fly long distances between manuvers than to keep it in tighter. I still get my lines drawn between them, just dont feel comfortable flying 500-1000' to get to the start of the next one. It may be just something I'll have to get used to. I guess for the basic sequence anyway Im saying I can fly the entire sequence inside a 2000' "BOX" instead of pushing it out much further. Im old school, and grew up at the local airport, where everyone doing aerobatics in full scale aircraft seldom left the boundries of the airport. I guess that sticks in my mind while im flying & makes it difficult for me to comprehend why we fly so far out. I really enjoy IMAC, just dont fully understand some of it yet.....Gene

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RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE - 2/18/2008 2:58:40 PM   
quist



Posts: 1605
Joined: 1/8/2002
From: Glendale, AZ, USA
Status: offline

There is no reason to take the basic sequence out further then the 2000' box.

As for the distance out. Give yourself plenty of room from the deadline, so if you get out of postion you wont break the line. 150-200' in front of you presents well. It also allows you to draw an upline without the judges straining to see the plane.


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RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE - 2/18/2008 3:25:36 PM   
sweetpea01



Posts: 1956
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Oak Harbor, WA, USA
Status: offline 		TQ---I believe the 60 degree vertical rule is still in effect?


That means if the judge has the crane their head 60 degrees straight up to look at your plane it was either a downgrade or a zero, I can't remember.

This means you are flying tooooooo close, move it out some.

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RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE - 2/18/2008 3:37:40 PM   
quist



Posts: 1605
Joined: 1/8/2002
From: Glendale, AZ, USA
Status: offline 		EDIT Once again, no reason to hit 60 degrees in the basic sequence for good presentation.

We have not had a judging seminar here in a couple of years, so I wont bother quoting an out of date book.

< Message edited by quist -- 2/19/2008 4:40:13 AM >

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RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE - 2/18/2008 4:03:26 PM   
Mastertech


 

Posts: 673
Joined: 11/8/2004
From: Dalzell, SC, USA
Status: offline 		So IMAC changed the rules to fit the airplanes and flying style rather than make the airplanes fit the rules?

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RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE - 2/18/2008 5:19:24 PM   
sweetpea01



Posts: 1956
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From: Oak Harbor, WA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: twtaylor

So IMAC changed the rules to fit the airplanes and flying style rather than make the airplanes fit the rules?



I don't see how this was done.


The standard is about 100-200yds off the deadline. even a .40 glo is pretty easy to see at this distance.

What IMAC is trying to do is keep the pilot at a safe "consistent" distance. If your plane is very small of course you can fly slightly closer so it presents better.......but that doesn't mean right up on the judges. It also doesn't mean fly so far away that the judges cannot see the plane.


Now if the pilots eyes are bad (as stated in the first posts) and it requires him to fly very close.......well that is a deduction on the ACS and has nothing to do with plane size.

That would be like saying I'm missing a thumb so I shouldn't have to incorporate rudder corrections. A physical disabliity does not weigh into the scoring of IMAC.




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RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE - 2/18/2008 5:40:52 PM   
gene6029


 

Posts: 53
Joined: 9/15/2007
From: wilson, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks for the replies. Im looking fwd to the boot camp & F&J seminar. Maybe I'll have a better perspective after both. Looks like a year of learning something new, and like it was suggested I am allready haveing fun......Gene

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RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE - 2/18/2008 10:54:38 PM   
Johny rc



Posts: 142
Joined: 2/20/2003
From: . ,
Status: offline 		those are nice answers, but the "locals" are right too. if your flying a 35 %'er and having a hard time seeing it, sounds like it might be out to far for any class.

< Message edited by Johny rc -- 2/18/2008 11:02:57 PM >

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RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE - 2/18/2008 11:31:21 PM   
exeter_acres



Posts: 6067
Joined: 9/22/2004
From: Johns Creek, GA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: quist

Yes it is, but rarely enforced. Once again, no reason to hit 60 degrees in the basic sequence.


I am having a heck of a time finding this in the rule book....
can you let me know what section or page it is on



my own edit....

OK..I admit it...My wife tells me I'm too sarcastic sometimes! And darn it...I let her believe that!

Ok.. I am.. I should have been much clearer.......

Sorry for my smart alec answer.....

< Message edited by exeter_acres -- 2/19/2008 1:48:36 AM >

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RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE - 2/19/2008 12:34:45 AM   
sewbusy


 

Posts: 43
Joined: 12/21/2003
From: Acworth, GA,
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: quist

Yes it is, but rarely enforced. Once again, no reason to hit 60 degrees in the basic sequence.
Hi Guys.... To be clear... there is NO 60° rule in IMAC....This went out 2 years ago (for those who have not attended a recent Judging Seminar). The only thing that exists is the "Aerobatic Airspace" & there are no defined parameters except the "deadline" which is 100 feet out.
When we originally had the "box" there was no definitive way of exactly saying who had broken the box. Various methods were tried including experiments with a GPS system. In reality, the only way would be to have boundary judges set up at each contest.

This reality just will not work in MOST contests since we don't have enough sequence judges as it is and additional "boundary judges would put a strain on an already stretched situation. In addition, boundary judges certainly could be sitting in "alligator alley" or some sort of tarantulla nest etc. on the outer fringes & even at the back of the box.... So what do we do?

At present, the Airspace Control Score is the way to try to get pilots to learn to keep their sequence in a space that the judges can see it properly & judge accordingly. If pilots can get used to this idea & place their maneuvers where they can be judged optimally then they will be rewarded with a higher score on their ACS (Airspace Control Score).

At the recently concluded National/International Judging School http://www.sewbusy.com/IntlJSchool2008.htm we experimented with possible scores input into a scoring program. When the scores were generated it was revealed that the difference between a 0 & a 5 OR a 5 & a 10 that the final score PER JUDGE (in each sequence) in the Unlimited class would be 20.3 of NORMALIZED points. The ACS score has more "BITE" than we really believe, since an Unlimited pilot can rack up a significant increase in points if he flies in a smaller footprint. The variation goes down as we move into the lower classes.

So, based on this, a pilot should be concentrating as MUCH as possible to place their sequence in a smaller footprint to attain the highest ACS score possible.

Hope this helps.
Wayne
IMAC Judging Instructor

< Message edited by sewbusy -- 2/19/2008 12:58:37 AM >

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RE: IMAC "BOX" SIZE - 2/19/2008 1:06:18 AM   
Stan Stockman


 

Posts: 3
Joined: 2/21/2005
From: Greenwood, SC, USA
Status: offline 		Wow, Sewbusy! Could not have said it any better. Thanks to you and exeter acres as you both hit the nail on the head. I just hope that everyone judging me knows the rules like you guys!

Stan

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