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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 5/22/2009 2:04 AM   
Mustang Fever



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Status: offline 		"Use wire that matches the gague of the wire being used now."

Or one size bigger if the distance is significant. 



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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 5/24/2009 12:55 AM   
rc flylow



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Status: offline 		I received a response for Elecrify.  Doesn't help me much because I must move the battery far from the motor or have a 5 lb airplane.  Here it is:

"Thank you for contacting product support. Unfortunately we can't recommend any modifications on the leads as that hasn't been tested. This would also usually void the warranty. I would check some online Rc forums for some resolution from fellow modelers. Thanks."
 
Mike M
Product Support Technician
Great Planes Model Distributers
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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 5/24/2009 5:48 AM   
Mustang Fever



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Status: offline 		You can make the leads from the battery to the speed control as long as you need to.  Just leave the wires between the speed control and the motor as is. 



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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 5/24/2009 10:19 PM   
rc flylow



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Status: offline 		Thanks all.  I'll do exactly that.  The ESC will be in the tail next to the ducted fan motor (in the airstream for cooling purposes) and I'll lengthen the battery leads just enough to get the battery in the nose.  Makes sense to increase the wire guage as well to cut down on potential voltage loss.

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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 6/14/2009 3:45 AM   
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Status: offline 		I have a richmodel yak 54 that has a 30 amp esc and a r-28  rimfire engine on it however I don't know what battery to use can you help me out with a very simple , non-teck way to size my elect planes for batteries??? It seems that all the batteries that I am using on the yak 54 are causing the esc to get real hot in just a couple of seconds.  The motor is what is recomened and so is the esc but they don't give any information on what battery to use . I have tried a 1500amp 3s  15c on up to a 2000amp 3s 20c but everything is heating up the esc to a very high tempeture and then the motor wants to quit on me . Help anywhere without the tech-no stuff . I is just an old country boy.?? 

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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 6/14/2009 6:28 AM   
aeajr



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ORIGINAL: dancingeagle

I have a richmodel yak 54 that has a 30 amp esc and a r-28  rimfire engine on it however I don't know what battery to use can you help me out with a very simple , non-teck way to size my elect planes for batteries??? It seems that all the batteries that I am using on the yak 54 are causing the esc to get real hot in just a couple of seconds.  The motor is what is recomened and so is the esc but they don't give any information on what battery to use . I have tried a 1500amp 3s  15c on up to a 2000amp 3s 20c but everything is heating up the esc to a very high tempeture and then the motor wants to quit on me . Help anywhere without the tech-no stuff . I is just an old country boy.?? 


I can see from your question that you have not read the e-book.  If you go back to the first post you will see that Chapeters 3 & 4 address your question.  But let's see if we can help.

Batteries can not cause your ESC to get hot as long as the cell count or voltage is not higher then the ESC is rated for.   The amperage draw of your motor can cause your ESC to get hot. 

You say you are using the rrecommended ESC for that motor.  Are you also using the ecommended propeller for that motor?  Which motor do you have?  If the prop is too big or too deep it will cause the motor to draw more power.  This puts more strain on the ESC.


What prop are you using?

Looking at Rimfire motors I don't see a model R-28.  However I do see a series of Rimfire motors in the 28 range here.  http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0095p?FVPROFIL=&FVSEARCH=Rimfire+28

Which one do you have?  Each would take a different prop.

If you had a watt meter you could measure how many amps the motor was drawing and tell immediatly if you were over working the ESC and/or the motor.

Here is the watt meter that I use.
http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXLMV0&P=ML







< Message edited by aeajr -- 6/14/2009 6:38 AM >


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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 6/14/2009 4:26 PM   
Mustang Fever



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Status: offline 		This Electrifly website allows you to choose between outrunner and inrunner, and shows the specs, battery size, etc. for all their products:

http://www.electrifly.com/motorsgears.html

The only thing I really don't like about it is that all of the inrunner applications are shown with reduction gearboxes.  They don't show any direct drive at all.  Dumb.

Do what the boss says:  get a wattmeter.  You plug it in series with your battery leads to the ESC and it allows you to measure the current and voltage at any throttle setting.  All of the maximum allowable currents and voltages are shown on the Electrifly website, so it's easy to tell if you're exceeding the recommended values if you have a wattmeter.  This is the wattmeter I've been using, comes with Deans connectors on both ends so it's a snap to use. (The page says it has Astro Flight zero loss connectors on it, but it doesn't)

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LX3605&P=ML

Compare the specs on your ESC to the specs on your motor.  I like to size ESCs so that the constant current rating on the ESC exceeds that of the motor by a healthy margin, usually 10-20 amps, so that I can use the BEC feature without worrying about over amping. 




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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 6/30/2009 8:54 PM   
tcraftpo


 

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Status: offline 		Ed,

Thank you, thank you, and thank you. Your posts have been very valuable to everyone. I know this must have taken alot of personal time and I really appreciate that. Being a member who lost a field to development, then finding another one where only electric flight is permissible, I really do appreciate all the information. I know it's all published throughout the internet, but it's real nice to have it all in one place. You have definitely answered a boat load of questions and made the light bulb alot brighter with other topics.

Thanks again!
Pat

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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 7/2/2009 6:59 PM   
aeajr



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Status: offline 		Pat,

Thank you for your kind words. I am glad you found this e-book helpful.


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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 10/29/2009 5:05 PM   
aeajr



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Status: offline 		I would like to bring to the attention of the readers of this e-book the work of Ken Myers, President EFO. Ken has taken this e-book, added some editorial work to it and has produced it in .pdf format so it can be downloaded.


Ken has reorganized some of the my chapters. In doing so it shifts the focus of the e-book from the electric power system to an overall guide for the new and experienced electric pilot. While the content is 98% the same as here the content order is different. Thanks for your contributions Ken.

This is the reason I published this in e-format rather than paper. The electronic format allows us to work together to take the work of one and build upon it.

You can find the .pdf format here. It is 49 pages.

Ken, on behalf of the electric community, we thank you for your time, effort and your contribution.
http://theampeer.org/everything-e-power.pdf
( direct link to the pdf updated 7-2012)




edit:  The .pdf continues to be a useful reference document but it is not updated on a regular basis, so you may find some minor variations between the .pdf articles and the on-line articles.  However the basic information is sound.  Updates are mostly to refresh links, make adjustments about cost or perhaps add some additional information.  However the articles in the .pdf are sound and useful.  Enjoy them.

< Message edited by aeajr -- 1/4/2013 6:08 PM >


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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 11/6/2009 2:18 AM   
gaRCfield



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Status: offline 		Thanks for this thread; it is really helping me with the basics as I convert from wet power. I am currently trying to decide on the voltage for the system in my new plane - either 8S or 10S lipo power.

People are running 8S or 10S setups on the plane I am about to get, yet they are both spinning the same 18x10 propeller (different motors, of course). I found this to be confusing (wouldn't you want to spin a bigger prop with the higher voltage system?) but this is what I hypothesized: by using higher voltage you are drawing less current from the battery to do the same job, and thus have a more efficient system. Therefore you can use batteries with less capacity, or you can deal with the extra weight and increase flight times. Is this correct?

Also, I now understand that ESC's just send pulses of full charge/current to the motor to regulate RPM. Is a lipo C rating supposed to be the constant discharge of the battery?

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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 11/6/2009 3:02 AM   
aeajr



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quote:

ORIGINAL: gaRCfield

Thanks for this thread; it is really helping me with the basics as I convert from wet power. I am currently trying to decide on the voltage for the system in my new plane - either 8S or 10S lipo power.

People are running 8S or 10S setups on the plane I am about to get, yet they are both spinning the same 18x10 propeller (different motors, of course). I found this to be confusing (wouldn't you want to spin a bigger prop with the higher voltage system?) but this is what I hypothesized: by using higher voltage you are drawing less current from the battery to do the same job, and thus have a more efficient system. Therefore you can use batteries with less capacity, or you can deal with the extra weight and increase flight times. Is this correct?

Also, I now understand that ESC's just send pulses of full charge/current to the motor to regulate RPM. Is a lipo C rating supposed to be the constant discharge of the battery?


First, the C rating of a lipo is the MAXIMUM constant current drain it sustain without serious damage. So, if you have a 2000 mah pack, which is the sames as saying a 2 ah pack, and it it rated at 20C, then that pack should be able to handle 40 amps max. In practice we like to run our packs at a somewhat lower rate than max so as to put less stress on them. So, for example I would probably prefer to run this pack at about 32-35 amps max.

Some packs also have a BURST rating. So you might see a pack rated 20/40C rated. That means it could handle 20C constant but could handle a burst of 15 seconds at double that level. I never use these burst ratings but if you have well understood need for very short bursts of power, then it might be helpful.


Power

Watts is the electric equivalent of horsepower. Watts = Volts X Amps

And just like cars, where we talk about HP per pound, in electric RC airplanes we talk about watts per pound. So if I have a 2 pound plane, I can achieve 100 watts/pound by using a higher voltage running at a lower amperage or a lower voltage at higher amperage.

So you can use a 10V pack delivering 20 amps to reach 200 watts.

Or you could use a 20V pack delivering 10 amps to reach 200 watts.

So, how could we have the same prop in both cases? Well we are going to deliver 200 watts to the prop and we are going to turn it at about the same speed in both cases.

If you look at the specs of a brushless motor, you will see something called the kV rating. That tells us how many RPMs we will get per volt applied.

So if the motor has a 300 kV rating and we apply 20V the motor will turn at 300X20 = 6000 rpms.

If the motor has a 600kV rating, and we apply 10V to it, then the motor will turn at 600X10 = 6000 rpms

So, that same size prop, in this example, will be turned at 6000 RPMs. The prop will deliver the same thrust and the same pitch speed in both cases. We would just match up our voltage with the kV rating that would give us 6000 rpms, or whatever RPMs or pitch speed we wanted.

Same RPMs using two different voltages, the watts, the power is the same in both cases. We just derrived them in different manner.

Look at multispeed bicycles. You have a set of gears in the front and a set in the back. If you want to change the speed, or the effort, you can change the back gear you are using or you can change the front gear, or you can change both.

So the back is the kV rating of the motor and the front is the voltage of the battery pack.

I used to be involved in drag racing, years ago. We would match the rear end drive ratio to different gearboxes and differnt size tires to get the kind of torque we wanted to get the best hole shot from the starting line. All the same thing.


I hope my analogies and my examples don't confuse you. Keep asking questions.

< Message edited by aeajr -- 11/6/2009 3:37 AM >


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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 11/6/2009 3:44 AM   
gaRCfield



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Status: offline 		Your analogies are great, actually

quote:

In practice we like to run our packs at a somewhat lower rate than max so as to put less stress on them.


How do you regulate the discharge of the battery?

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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 11/6/2009 5:57 AM   
aeajr



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quote:

ORIGINAL: gaRCfield

Your analogies are great, actually

quote:

In practice we like to run our packs at a somewhat lower rate than max so as to put less stress on them.


How do you regulate the discharge of the battery?


By properly matching the motor/prop and teh battery. You don't regulate, you select the right motor/prop combo.


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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 11/6/2009 6:52 AM   
gaRCfield



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Status: offline 		I think I'm getting this:
Let's say I have (to simplify) a 30 volt battery, 2000mah, rated at 10C. If I use a motor with 250kv, the motor will spin whatever prop is there at (250x30=) 7500rpm. How many amps this will draw from the battery depends on the resistance supplied by the prop; the bigger the prop, the more resistance, the more amps need to be drawn to achieve the 7500rpm. So, I need to choose a prop that will draw no more than 20 amps (probably 15 or so?) to be safe.

Is this correct so far?

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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 11/6/2009 7:40 AM   
aeajr



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Status: offline 		By George, I think you've got it!

So, how do you know what prop?

You use the MFG calculators, like the one I used for AXI. There are several others listed in the post on sizing power systems.

You can also look at the spec sheets included with the motors. For example Max Pro motors come with great documentation. Take a look here. You can read it right off the chart.
http://www.maxxprod.com/pdf/HC6332-230.pdf

Reading the chart, if we use a 10 cell pack, approx 37 volts, and we use a 17X10 prop the motor will draw about 60 amps yielding about 2200 watts. If you put his motor in your 11 pound plane you would have about 200 watts/pound. That would be unlimted verticle and would likely hover.

If you used an 8 cell pack and the same 17X10 prop, that would be about 1200 watts or 109 watts per pound. That would be an excellent sport aerobatic plane, but maybe not unlimited pattern. Uplines might be a bit weak.

An 8 cell pack, turning a 20X10 prop would yield about 1800 watts. ON your 11 pound plane that would be 163 watts/pound.

That is how I would work from a MFG chart.

Battery Duration.

A 2000 mah pack can sustain 2000 ma/or 2 amps for one hour. So it can deliver 20 amps for 1/10 of an hour or 6 minutes.


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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 11/6/2009 7:51 AM   
gaRCfield



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Status: offline 		Wow, a couple hours ago I had no idea why things would work, and now I'm tearing through data sheets and totally understanding why people are choosing what they're choosing and how it would work.

You are just a step ahead of me, too. Next is to look at props and flight times as I've got the battery and motor stuff down pretty good.

So a 2000mah battery can put out 20 amps for 6 minutes...that's 10C. A 20C battery could put out 40 amps for 3 minutes and still be relatively safe.

Thanks so much for your help! This just turned in to a lot of fun

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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 11/6/2009 7:59 AM   
aeajr



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Status: offline 		It is good to understand how things work, but if you plan to select your own power systems on a regular basis, an investment in one of the commercial calc programs is a good idea. It will let you play "what if" and will give you a list of motors, props and batteries that will meet your needs. This is one of them.

MotoCalc
This program will tell you everything you need to know: Amps, Volts, Watts, RPM,
Thrust, Rate of Climb, and much more! It is a popular tool for predicting
the proper motor, prop, battery pack for electric planes.
http://www.motocalc.com/


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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 11/6/2009 9:36 PM   
gaRCfield



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Status: offline 		Is there a resource for information as to how a prop will affect a generic motor, or doest this only come from the motor manufacturers? Some of the motors I've been looking at say nothing about props.

As for motocalc, I already have it. I'm from the school of thought that says not to get too comfortable with a computer program until you understand the basics behind it. I want to know if the answer I get back is reasonable before I trust it, or trust the values I entered are correct.

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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 11/6/2009 10:06 PM   
aeajr



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Status: offline 		WebOCalc is the package I use to do generic modeling.
http://flbeagle.rchomepage.com/software/webocalc_1.05/html/webocalc_imperial.html

You can play around with voltages, kV, Max prop size, target speed, target thrust, max amps and see what it spits out as recommendations for props. It really works from the motor out, rather than the prop in.

Once you feel you have some grasp on these concepts, WebOcalc can be a great way to test your understanding. I use it all the time.


For example, if I use it to model a plane similar to the one we have been discussing:

180 ounces
800 sq inch of wing
80 inch wing span

I set a max prop size of 20 inches - Perhaps ground clearence would dictate something less.

I set speed target at around 80 mph

I set a thrust target of around 160 oz

I clicked the voltage wizard and it gave me a range of choices. I chose an 8S pack, it filled in the voltage and the target amps

I used the kV wizard to suggest a kV for an outrunner. I used 300

It suggests a 17X12 prop yielding a pitch speed of 72.9 mph and a prop thrust of 186.6 oz.

Now, I can vary the voltage, max amps, kV, and see what happens to the prop recommendations, the pitch speed and the thrust. Also take a look at how it evaluates the set-up.

Change the kV motor rating to 320 and see what happens.

If you were building a Pylon racer, you would optimize for speed. So set a high speed target and play with KV and voltages.

If you are building an e-glider or a 3D plane, you would optimize for thrust for fast climbs or hover. So set your speed target lower and make your thrust target higher. Watch what happens.

This is fun!

This is a "roughing out" tool. No brands, just general specs where you can do "what if". I like it a lot and I find it an excellent first step in selecting a power system. Now I know what to look for in terms of motor specs across brands.

< Message edited by aeajr -- 11/7/2009 12:09 AM >


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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 11/7/2009 2:18 AM   
gaRCfield



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Status: offline 		Awesome link! It actually just made me feel a lot better about my 10S decision. People have been saying the plane is 'floaty', and at 9.25lbs and 10S (or 8.5lb and 8S like stock) the program said it would fly like 'a glow trainer'. I bumped it up to close to 10lbs and I got 'fast aerobatic' - more like the pattern plane that it is. The extra cell weight should be just fine.

Thanks again for all your help. I can't believe how much I've learned from this thread in 24 hours!

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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 11/7/2009 4:38 AM   
aeajr



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Status: offline 		Glad to help, and our conversation here will help others as they follow our conversation.



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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 11/8/2009 7:30 AM   
cool pool


 

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Status: offline 		Hi,
I've just started electric flying this year and it's great. My first electric plane is the Super Cub. But, flying is pretty much done for winter, how do I store and maintain the NI-Mh and Li Po batteries over the winter ? What would be the proper way ?
Thanks in advance.
Wayne

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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 11/8/2009 8:03 AM   
aeajr



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Status: offline 		I have read that Lipos are best stored at about 1/2 charge.

Nimh can be left fully charges as they will self discharge over time.


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RE: EVERYTHING YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT ELECTRIC FLIGHT - 12/2/2009 8:00 AM   
slim56


 

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Status: offline 		Ed,

I have been looking for something like this for well over a year. Myself and several club members will enjoy going back to school.

Thanks,

Ken

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