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RE: Supertigre..Italian vs China - 3/10/2008 3:22:34 PM   
50+AirYears


 

Posts: 1147
Joined: 7/29/2004
From: Lorain, OH, USA
Status: offline 		Our company switched some production to China a few years ago. Lack of uniformity is a BIG problem. One shipment of components will have great quality, the next will be total scrap. Sometimes it seems that the only way to get consistency is to have one of our people there on site all the time to keep an eye on them.

(in reply to Jezmo)
       Post #: 26

RE: Supertigre..Italian vs China - 4/25/2008 12:54:56 PM   
speedster 1919



Posts: 1466
Joined: 12/17/2004
From: Martinsville, IN, USA
Status: offline 		First the Super Tigre carb won't fit the OS 50. The secret is in the compression and a head gasket change on your OS 50 might change that. Watch the OS50 for it will eat a rear bearing cage at about 10 gallons of fuel.

_____________________________

Hey Buddy -That was the most spectacular crash I've ever seen , That rolling cart wheel with parts slinging out was cool...

(in reply to ianwynne)
       Post #: 27

RE: Supertigre..Italian vs China - 4/25/2008 9:52:21 PM   
Ed Cregger



Posts: 7496
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Ringgold, GA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 50+AirYears

Our company switched some production to China a few years ago. Lack of uniformity is a BIG problem. One shipment of components will have great quality, the next will be total scrap. Sometimes it seems that the only way to get consistency is to have one of our people there on site all the time to keep an eye on them.






This problem isn't unique to Chinese made products. A certain US chemical company, which shall go un named, cannot produce a given product today to the same standards that they did in their prior 5 decade history of the invention and production of said product. How can this be? I do not have the answer, but I do know that throwing money at the problem has not worked. Fortunately for this company, no one else in the world can do as well as they are doing. However, I'm sure that this won't last forever. Nothing ever does.

I have often wondered what it is unique about today's Chinese companies that causes such a variation in product quality. I've also wondered about the opposite phenomenon with Japanese and German products. I doubt if we will ever learn anything definitive about this subject during our lifetimes.

Anyone thinking that this is a permanent situation with Chinese manufacturing better think again. Japan had some difficulties when they first became popular in manufacturing. Now their products are highly regarded.

I buy Chinese products that have good support through American distributors/dealers, but I view them similarly to the way that I viewed Fox engines. I never counted on buying a Fox engine and having it work perfectly out of the box. Half the time I would end up sending the Fox back to Duke for "adjustment". With Chinese products sometimes selling at half the price of an OS engine, I buy with the "Fox Principle" in mind. When I really need for something to work the first time, I'll buy OS, Enya, YS or Saito. I'm seldom disappointed. This is why I recommend that beginners in the hobby start out with OS, then work their way down in price as they gather experience. This assumes that they have the desire to work their way down. Many do not and they just continue to buy OS, which is just fine. That's what I did many, many years ago. I bought one OS engine after another. I wanted to fly - not fiddle.

If Sanye would tighten their tolerances just a weeny bit, they could jump their engines into the OS class, but at a cheaper price than OS. Will it happen? Tune in next week...



Ed Cregger


_____________________________

Artisan

"Flying models since the Fifties - I'll get the hang of this yet!!!"

(in reply to 50+AirYears)
       Post #: 28

RE: Supertigre..Italian vs China - 4/25/2008 9:53:44 PM   
Ed Cregger



Posts: 7496
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Ringgold, GA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 50+AirYears

Our company switched some production to China a few years ago. Lack of uniformity is a BIG problem. One shipment of components will have great quality, the next will be total scrap. Sometimes it seems that the only way to get consistency is to have one of our people there on site all the time to keep an eye on them.






This problem isn't unique to Chinese made products. A certain US chemical company, which shall go un named, cannot produce a given product today to the same standards that they did in their prior 5 decade history of the invention and production of said product. How can this be? I do not have the answer, but I do know that throwing money at the problem has not worked. Fortunately for this company, no one else in the world can do as well as they are doing. However, I'm sure that this won't last forever. Nothing ever does.

I have often wondered what it is unique about today's Chinese companies that causes such a variation in product quality. I've also wondered about the opposite phenomenon with Japanese and German products. I doubt if we will ever learn anything definitive about this subject during our lifetimes.

Anyone thinking that this is a permanent situation with Chinese manufacturing better think again. Japan had some difficulties when they first became popular in manufacturing. Now their products are highly regarded.

I buy Chinese products that have good support through American distributors/dealers, but I view them similarly to the way that I viewed Fox engines. I never counted on buying a Fox engine and having it work perfectly out of the box. Half the time I would end up sending the Fox back to Duke for "adjustment". With Chinese products sometimes selling at half the price of an OS engine, I buy with the "Fox Principle" in mind. When I really need for something to work the first time, I'll buy OS, Enya, YS or Saito. I'm seldom disappointed. This is why I recommend that beginners in the hobby start out with OS, then work their way down in price as they gather experience. This assumes that they have the desire to work their way down. Many do not and they just continue to buy OS, which is just fine. That's what I did many, many years ago. I bought one OS engine after another. I wanted to fly - not fiddle.

If Sanye would tighten their tolerances just a weeny bit, they could jump their engines into the OS class, but at a cheaper price than OS. Will it happen? Tune in next week...



Ed Cregger


_____________________________

Artisan

"Flying models since the Fifties - I'll get the hang of this yet!!!"

(in reply to 50+AirYears)
       Post #: 29

RE: Supertigre..Italian vs China - 4/25/2008 10:14:22 PM   
50+AirYears


 

Posts: 1147
Joined: 7/29/2004
From: Lorain, OH, USA
Status: offline 		Right, the problem isn't unique to China. We have the same problems with components and assemblies from Thailand, Germany, Hungary, and a couple of other countries as well, including America. It just seems that as long as we don't play the lowest bidder game, the American products in our supply chain generally seem to have the highest consistent quality at a price below many European suppliers. Looking for lowest price seems often to lead to exorbitant costs and lowered profit margins for my company.

I also remember when new Japanese cars were rusting away on the Dealers' lots right off the carry-all. I also remember buying parts for Volkswagens from the dealer to repair customers' cars, and being shown by a VW parts manager that the "Genuine" VW part was a Bosch part with a sticky label covering the Bosch name and part number, for sometimes a 400% mark-up over the Bosch list price. And the dealership only gets a 20% discount off the VW price, and would have the franchise lifted if they ever got a Bosch part locally from a Bosch distributor.

(in reply to Ed Cregger)
       Post #: 30

RE: Supertigre..Italian vs China - 4/25/2008 10:56:48 PM   
XJet


 

Posts: 3217
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Tokoroa, NEW ZEALAND
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ed Cregger
If Sanye would tighten their tolerances just a weeny bit, they could jump their engines into the OS class, but at a cheaper price than OS. Will it happen? Tune in next week...

You're dead-right Ed.

I don't know how many Chinese manufacturers I've tried to convince that they could make a lot more money if they focused on value rather than price but the concept of "value" seems lost on most of them.

They believe (perhaps quite rightly given the fickle attitudes of some consumers) that so long as their product is cheap enough, people don't care about the quality.

A great example of this was a friend of mine who designs and sells kites, wind-buggies and the like. He gets his stuff made in China and has had huge problems over the years. Apparently, in order to sell well, you've got to update your design every year so every year they send off a new design to China and await delivery of the product.

A few years back the promised shipping deadline went and passed with no sign of the product. When he rang they said there was a small problem but the product would ship in two weeks. Two weeks came and went still no product shipped. Another call promised another shipping date. This went on for a couple of months until *finally* they shipped.

When the product arrived it was not the design they'd sent but more of the units based on the previous year's design.

On ringing the Chinese my friend was told "it was too hard for us to make the new design so we made the old one but we will give you a 10% discount".

Of course having "last year's" product was useless to this guy because (as I said) it's a fashion-conscious market.

But the Chinese just thought that they could do anything they wanted, so long as the price was low enough.

Thunder Tiger is a good indication of a company that started out as a cheap maker of OS engine clones but has transitioned to become a highly regarded developer and manufacturer in their own right. In fact I will opt for TT over OS every time simply on the *value* it represents. Perhaps the more Western attitudes of Taiwan has resulted in this change whereas mainland China is still living in a mist of misconception.



_____________________________

When I'm not here, I'm at RCModelReviews

(in reply to Ed Cregger)
       Post #: 31

RE: Supertigre..Italian vs China - 4/25/2008 11:47:22 PM   
ianwynne


 

Posts: 68
Joined: 1/24/2007
From: SydneyNSW, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		Hello Speedster:

>First the Super Tigre carb won't fit the OS 50.

If you are referring to me then you are not quite correct. The OS 50sx has as standard, a small brass adapter ring for the standard carburetor. A small amount of grinding on the inside of the brass ring now has a Supertigre G51 carb fitting very snuggly. I haven't run the engine yet though.

The only way I can think of raising the compression is to remove the single head gasket, which I'm assuming would not help the head sealing. Or of course having someone machine the head for me.

I don't have to worry about the bearing life. The engine sucked in dirt a couple of months ago after a "mid-air" I've cleaned out the engine out as best I can with kerosene. However, there is still some grit. I will dismantle the engine completely and replace the bearings at the same time, with stainless steel ones.

I hope that helps to clear things up a little.

Bye, Ian

(in reply to XJet)
       Post #: 32

RE: Supertigre..Italian vs China - 5/6/2008 4:17:18 PM   
AussieBrett


 

Posts: 9
Joined: 4/30/2007
From: Brisbane, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		RE china, the real question is ....IS A CRAP DESIGN PUT TOGETHER VERY WELL BETER THAN A GREAT DESIGN PUT TOGETHER POORLY ???.....the problem with chineese made products is people forget you get what you pay for.......the old rule of if u want something done properly do it yourself- has gone, its now pay someone else to do it properly...so its not who does it, but how they do it....the chineese have a philosophy, pay me good money, we give u good product, pay me crap, we give u crap, pay me excellent, we give u excellent, not different for any other country..THEN THE CONTAINER TURNS UP FULL OF CRAP AND PEOPLE COMPLAIN....WHO SCREWED WHO??? (lol).BACK TOTHE START QUESTIONmy answer- the design is the most important....a great copy is still mostly keeping to a great designPS-most japaneese companies now manufacture out their products in china and south korea too, so its al chineese these days, just not the name on some boxes !!!!..brandname means little now, just the design and the waranty ofered !!..now fly a plane ...bye.

< Message edited by blw -- 5/6/2008 6:39:26 PM >

(in reply to ianwynne)
       Post #: 33

RE: Supertigre..Italian vs China - 5/6/2008 5:14:13 PM   
Bigshark


 

Posts: 103
Joined: 12/1/2004
From: St. Louis, MO, USA
Status: offline 		Gee Brett,

I better tell my hitec radio, and hobbico servos, and tower and ST engines, and Himaxx motors that they are el cheapo carp......


No offense intended but the days of having everything made locally are gone and dead and good riddance. Also gone and dead are the days of $500 starter radios and RC being the sport of the super wealthy. I thank god everyday for the global economy!


Good day to you.

< Message edited by blw -- 5/6/2008 6:41:09 PM >

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(in reply to AussieBrett)
       Post #: 34

RE: Supertigre..Italian vs China - 5/6/2008 6:44:23 PM   
blw



Posts: 4458
Joined: 3/15/2004
From: Auburn, AL, USA
Status: offline 		We need to keep this on topic and not about political issues.

_____________________________

The ultimate responsibility of pilots is to fulfill the dreams of the countless millions who can only stare skyward...and wish.

(in reply to Bigshark)
       Post #: 35

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