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RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/10/2008 5:29:16 PM   
camW


 

Posts: 47
Joined: 7/18/2003
From: Charlottesville, VA, USA
Status: offline 		With our club's Charter renewal Kit we received the announcement of the Park Pilot Program and began reviewing the question at hand. My immediate concern had to do with a possible breach by officers of the club to police the the flight line to ensure that a PPP pilot was flying within his limitations.

I reviewed this matter with the AMA who advised that the club's insurance would not be effected if a PPP breached his limitations. Accordingly, we view the PPP/AMA coverage as satisfying our AMA insurance requirement. We have not made any concessions in our club dues of $60 a year as it has been put in this thread grass is grass and everyone gets a full burger at the picnic.

I would like to make a comment about this new emerging market. As a Club one of our goals is to further interest in the hobby and safety. People of all ages are purchasing the RTFs at the LHS and looking for a place to fly it as soon as they get their battery charged ...a field, a park, the driveway. Joining a club or purchasing insurance may not be foremost in their mind. Our problem is they may try and conduct their first flight with little attention to safety and without sufficient knowledge to avert a fatal end to their new found interest.

We have chosen to take a new approach this month by having our Local Hobby Shops insert in the aircraft boxes at the shop on the shelves an invitation to come to either of our local flying clubs on a Saturday morning for an introductory lesson to flying. This we believe will give us the satisfaction that some of these newbies will go out with safety in mind and sufficient knowledge to handle their aircraft without endangering the public.

The benefit to the club in promoting this avenue is that once at the field the flyer may be attracted to the club, the field and/or further training with larger sized aircraft. Here I see the opportunity of utilizing the Introductory membership program.

I have soken with the AMA regarding our approach but reactions have been somewhat cooler than I expected. Their focus appears to be the marketing of the PPP insurance program and new Park Flyer Clubs. This may be slightly off the topic of this thread but I would like to get some feedback from the clubs so I will post this reply as a new topic "Introducing Parl Flyer Pilots to flying"

(in reply to ira d)
       Post #: 27

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/10/2008 7:19:41 PM   
k3 valley flyer


 

Posts: 320
Joined: 1/9/2004
From: central , IL, USA
Status: offline 		Yes we will allow park flyers into our club, always have, as long as they pay full club dues and regualr AMA dues, ie $58.00. We do not accept idea that size of what you fly has anything to do with membership fees or insurance coverage. Our costs to maintain the field are the same if we all fly 40% gassers or 16oz foamies. Liability from killing someone with a gasser or a foamie is the same. Wake up AMA!

(in reply to Stickbuilder)
       Post #: 28

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/10/2008 8:01:29 PM   
-pkh-



Posts: 2300
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Emmaus, PA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: k3 valley flyer

Yes we will allow park flyers into our club, always have, as long as they pay full club dues and regualr AMA dues, ie $58.00. We do not accept idea that size of what you fly has anything to do with membership fees or insurance coverage. Our costs to maintain the field are the same if we all fly 40% gassers or 16oz foamies. Liability from killing someone with a gasser or a foamie is the same. Wake up AMA!

So you are saying that your club WILL NOT allow Park Pilot members to join your club, and that you require an open membership with the AMA to join, is that correct??

Do you honestly believe the risks associated with flying 40% gassers is equal to the risks associated with flying a 16oz foamy??

_____________________________

Paul - Helis: Two Raptor 50V2s, Venture 30CP, Blade CX2
Planes: Twist 150, Twist 60, Tribute 36, GP .40 Mustang

(in reply to k3 valley flyer)
       Post #: 29

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/10/2008 8:10:02 PM   
P-51B



Posts: 6143
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: -pkh-

... the risks associated with flying a 16oz foamy??



I thought it was up to two pounds at 60 mph...and it could be made of any material and be powered by an electric motor swinging razor sharp props at high rpm....

_____________________________

In order to think "outside the box", one must first accept there IS a box.

(in reply to -pkh-)
       Post #: 30

RE: [Awaiting Approval] - 3/10/2008 8:37:59 PM   
-pkh-



Posts: 2300
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Emmaus, PA, USA
Status: offline 		It is... but I was referring to K3's quote, comparing a 40% gasser to a 16oz foamy

_____________________________

Paul - Helis: Two Raptor 50V2s, Venture 30CP, Blade CX2
Planes: Twist 150, Twist 60, Tribute 36, GP .40 Mustang

(in reply to P-51B)
       Post #: 31

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/11/2008 12:35:46 AM   
k3 valley flyer


 

Posts: 320
Joined: 1/9/2004
From: central , IL, USA
Status: offline 		You got it correct. It has nothing to do with equal risks. Risk is risk, dead is dead. Had a member hit with a 16 oz foamie and spend 3 days in the hospital, he is on blood thinner and the bruise on his leg was huge and there for months. Could have died from a blood clot. A prop on an eletric can put out an eye jsut as good as a 60 glow. Point of insurance is to share the risk across a pool of people, most insurance coverage we pay for we never use, but if we become one of the unfortunate few with a serious claim the rest of us who buy it help through our premiums make the injured or damaged whole again. Creating seperate risk pools just dilutes the coverage and will raise the costs for all of us. People, PPP is just a bad idea on so many levels, but I will say no more. Time will tell, but no my club will not endorse PPP.

(in reply to -pkh-)
       Post #: 32

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/11/2008 1:41:50 AM   
camW


 

Posts: 47
Joined: 7/18/2003
From: Charlottesville, VA, USA
Status: offline 		The consensus among our BOD for the club is that the Club is covered for its liability to third parties and that our property owner is covered. The requirement under these insurances is that our members carry AMA insurance. The new applications for AMA insurance are all inclusive ( PPP is offered on the same application ) The fact that a PPP Pilot opts for a lower limit of third party coverage only is his choice. He is also limited to the size and speed of his aircraft that he can fly at the club field. He is getting far less than 1/2 the full member benefits to save only 1/2 the premium but that's his choice. Actually his premium dollar based on exposure is no different.

Of course he will have to endure being referred to as a cheap member even though he will have to pay the full club dues
I wonder if he will stick with the PPP insurance on renewal. Medical coverage is a nice feature.


(in reply to k3 valley flyer)
       Post #: 33

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/11/2008 6:10:20 AM   
Hossfly



Posts: 3680
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: New Caney, TX, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder

What is the consensus concerinig the allowance of those who only hold a PPP membership? Is your local club going to allow them? Will the dues structure be the same for them, or will your club create an new structure for these potential members? How about fees for initiation? Our fees for new members at the three clubs to which I belong are about $150.00 for the initiation fee, and the average in this area is $100.00 for annual dues. Will the PPP members roll over for this much money to belong to a club that has rules?

Bill, AMA 4720


Reference your questions that I added the bold to: NOT IF I CAN DO ANYTHING TO PREVENT ANY DIFFERENCES! In my main club -- the other 2, I will take no stand, other than either paying annual dues or dropping out -- and my reasons are:

FIRST -- A HISTORY LESSON

In 1995, the club was given notice to vacate their field on Waste Management property by Mar. 01, 1996, even though just previously they were told they could stay much longer. I ran for and was elected President for 1996, with the intent of obtaining a new field. I negotiated and obtained a 30 day extension.
Certain Club members formed a group and we went searching. We found a nice 50 acre plot in a 100 acre unit. After negotiation, the owner was willing to sell the property within market reason, however if the entire 100 acres were to be purchased the price was much better, $2475 per acre. I transferred $250,000.oo and the deal was done.
I leased 30 acres to the club for 18 months. The club then purchased the 30 acres for $2500 per acre. They were credited with 50% of the lease expense as down payment. I held the note through a Trust Co. The note was contracted at 6% interest for 5 years with interest thereafter to be PRIME minus ONE for each year thereafter starting in Dec. each year.
Folks, I lost many thousands $$ in this deal. Last year I sold 20 additional acres to the club at $2000 per acre LESS than what another individual was offering for the property. That was another $40,000 LOSS on my part. With some other discounts on my part the club managed to come up with another "banker" to take up the original note and the new note at 7%. I am no longer in the club financing business. However, IMO, I have a vested interest in this club, and I want it to remain in being.

SECOND: DO NOT MIX/CONFUSE THE AMA DEFINED PARK FLIER WITH THE ELECTRIC FLIER.

With the above in mind, I have no real interest in the individual that has no interest in the real model aviation world. If one cannot afford full AMA dues, and an annual club dues of $150.00 per year which may have to increase soon, then I will do whatever I can to send these persons to another place to play with their toys. In my long history within this sport, I find that those that reject clubs and organization have almost no interest in being a real part of the force needed to maintain the sport. In reality, IMO, 70% of the very active fliers have little or no ORGANIZATIONAL interest outside their own self-gratification. If they did, then we would not be having this discussion.

I have well paid far more than my dues, and you now know the story. Very few RC Clubs are composed of soaring modelers and power modelers. Few RC Clubs invite the CL and FF fraternities into their RC space. I have no reason to invite the so-called AMA DEFINED Park-Flier into my hard-earned space. Regular full AMA Electric Fliers are more than welcome.


_____________________________

Horrace Cain.
AMA Life L-93, Leader and CD for 45 years

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington

(in reply to Stickbuilder)
       Post #: 34

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/11/2008 5:00:21 PM   
camW


 

Posts: 47
Joined: 7/18/2003
From: Charlottesville, VA, USA
Status: offline 		Mode One

quote:


This statement confuses me! How would it be a: "possible breach by officers of the club to police the the flight line to ensure that a PPP pilot was flying within his limitations". Are you saying the officers (club members) don't have the right to police this aspect of the program? I'm asking this question of CamW, please allow him to answer.


Mode One

Sorry I did not elaborate.

The breach I speak of would arise where a PPP Pilot was not prevented from flying an aircraft outside of his limitations. The officers of the club have duties which include ensuring that Pilots flying at the site are covered by the AMA. At a Fly In the CD will view each pilots membership card and where the pilot is a PPP Pilot he will be restricted to flying aircraft under 2 lbs that do not exceed 60 mph. In the course of day to day operations of a flying site how far are the Officers expected to go to police the flight line. We can post rules. We can ask other members to report infractions. If there isn't an officer at the site to prevent a PPP Pilot from flying outside his limitations or an inspection is not conducted each time to ensure that the aircraft is within the limits could the officers be considered to be in breach of their responsibilities.

The same situation could be argued where a Full Member flies an aircraft over 55 lbs for which no Waiver has been obtained from AMA for such aircraft. I do not expect that this type of situation can go unnoticed for very long. Park Flyers are a bit different, change a motor and a battery on a Stryker and you have a 75 mph aircraft that looks like a covered Park Flyer.

The insurance protecting the club's operations covers the liabilities of the club resulting from operating a flying site. I was concerned that failing to prevent the pilot from flying an aircraft outside the limits of the pilots insurance coverage would in any way compromise the clubs coverage.

An example for those who might be unclear on what is covered for the club, an injured party sues the owner of the aircraft and the club for bodily injury resulting from a plane striking him. While the owner of the aircraft may be found liable and would seek coverage under his coverage with AMA, the club may have incurred substantial legal fees and expenses responding to the suit as an additional defendant which we would claim under the club insurance. If there is no coverage for the pilot and the Club was also named in the suit, in some states, an award may be sought against both the pilot and the club. The pilot for negligence in the operation of the aircraft and the club for failure to maintain a safe flying site.

The AMA has assured me that the Club's interests would be covered despite a failure to prevent the pilot from flying at the site. For now our club will post the limitations. We already require that every pilot log his flights on the field log with times, frequency and the aircraft flown. If aircraft are not operated in accordance with the rules at the field the log assists us in determining which pilots may be of concern.



(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 35

RE: [Awaiting Approval] - 3/11/2008 5:51:22 PM   
STLPilot


 

Posts: 8972
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: online
quote:

The breach I speak of would arise where a PPP Pilot was not prevented from flying an aircraft outside of his limitations. The officers of the club have duties which include ensuring that Pilots flying at the site are covered by the AMA. At a Fly In the CD will view each pilots membership card and where the pilot is a PPP Pilot he will be restricted to flying aircraft under 2 lbs that do not exceed 60 mph. In the course of day to day operations of a flying site how far are the Officers expected to go to police the flight line. We can post rules. We can ask other members to report infractions. If there isn't an officer at the site to prevent a PPP Pilot from flying outside his limitations or an inspection is not conducted each time to ensure that the aircraft is within the limits could the officers be considered to be in breach of their responsibilities.
How do you police the 24 other airplane safety code parameters. Then of course there is the dreaded "fly in a safe manner" which could lead to thousands of violations which would need to be "policed".

When a PPP gets his/her card, they agreed they would follow the stipluations granted. You can trust $58 members on flying within the 24 safety codes, but the additional 2 safety codes for the PPP creates some kind of safety breech???

It's really not as complicated as many make it out to be. And if you can't trust your own members from respecting club rules and their membership card ... then what's the point of having a club?

_____________________________

Here At The Wall

(in reply to camW)
       Post #: 36

RE: [Awaiting Approval] - 3/11/2008 6:32:24 PM   
camW


 

Posts: 47
Joined: 7/18/2003
From: Charlottesville, VA, USA
Status: offline 		STLPilot

I am not referring to the safety codes that a member who is insured for the aircraft he is flying is obligated to follow.

I am talking about allowing a member who is not insured to fly the aircraft he is piloting.

(in reply to STLPilot)
       Post #: 37

RE: [Awaiting Approval] - 3/11/2008 6:40:05 PM   
STLPilot


 

Posts: 8972
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: online 		Sorry don't understand, re-read both your posts 3 times and I thought we were talking about PPP's. Please elaborate.

_____________________________

Here At The Wall

(in reply to camW)
       Post #: 38

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/11/2008 6:44:26 PM   
KidEpoxy