RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join
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RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/12/2008 6:13:46 AM

busted2props

Posts: 175
Joined: 1/15/2002
From: tyler, TX, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

quote:

ORIGINAL: k3 valley flyer

Kid will be interesting to see how long before your last post gets deleted. Your points are exactly why my club will only allow full dues regular AMA holders, we don't want the liabilities that will come with two tiers of insurance and membership and exposure to suits that we were neglient because we did not stop the PPP guy from flying something he wasn't insured for. You know even the PPP member could sue us if he hurt himself with something bigger than the limits his PPP membership calls for, you know we should have stopped him before he hurt himself because we knew he was only PPP insured, qualified, experienced, etc etd etc. What a can of WORMS!

So wait. Every day your club members follow the AMA safety code to a "T"? You're members NEVER fly in a dangerous manner? All day, every day, 365 days a year your members follow the EXACT AMA safety code verbatim?

Nobody hand catches?
Every one of your members has their AMA numbers and name marked on their planes?
Nobody has ever flown a plane after just 1 beer?
Nobody ever flies about 400'?
A child under 6 ever get passed your pits?

You do realize that ANY deviation in the safety code constitutes a pilot possibly flying without insurance. But the PPP's are that incompetent that they can't understand a 2 lb and < 60 mph??? Who are the ones that can't understand how simple this is ... the PPP's or the people whom are so afraid of it? This is a question, not aimed at anyone.

Oh my God! STL has hit it on the head! 'Cmon guys, fess up! You know he is telling the truth. AMA numbers and names in the plane? One beer? How 'bout that nasty hangover? 400ft, oh, that's just starting...Children passed the pits--everyday. Hand catches? Oh yeah! That's the fun of it...even gliders...AMA safety code...bahhh humbug...only at your conviencence!!!!!

Really,there are only critical phases of flight (takeoff, climbout, short final, flare, touchdown and roll-out). Dangerous manner is preception...3D is dangerous manner...High speed inverted low approach is dangerous manner...Snap roll at departure end of runway is dangerous manner...Taking off is dangerous manner...landing is dangerous manner...Heck! Flying is dangerous manner, cause we are not in the aircraft!!!!!!! We cannot tell if and when a control linkage will let go...Come on people, what really is a dangerous manner...My perception is different than yours. Yours is differnt than mine...Which perception is correct. WE can argue that all day! And then, there is that one instance we can agree.

Yes, there are times when the AMA safety code needs to be adhered to, to a point. But, we know when those times are. Let's not be so ridgid that we don't bend a little. (ok, anal!) And if someone is not familiar with those specific times, just educate the individual.

Mean Monte

< Message edited by busted2props -- 3/12/2008 7:00:53 AM >

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Send Lawyers, Guns and Money!

(in reply to STLPilot)

Post #: 51

RE: [Awaiting Approval] - 3/12/2008 7:24:34 PM

k3 valley flyer

Posts: 327
Joined: 1/9/2004
From: central , IL, USA
Status: offline

Bsuted , no we don't preclude anyone or flying anything at our field, 1/2 a, gliders, electric, etc we allow them all and PPP guys are welcome, as long as they pay full AMA dues and full club dues. If you don't like our reasons for that decision so be it, but we believe it to be the fairest approach for all. Every one is equal, equal costs equal insurance, fly what you want but don't ask us to subsidize your choice.

(in reply to busted2props)

Post #: 52

RE: [Awaiting Approval] - 3/12/2008 7:46:52 PM

Stickbuilder

Posts: 5378
Joined: 11/20/2005
From: leesburg, FL, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: k3 valley flyer

Bsuted , no we don't preclude anyone or flying anything at our field, 1/2 a, gliders, electric, etc we allow them all and PPP guys are welcome, as long as they pay full AMA dues and full club dues. If you don't like our reasons for that decision so be it, but we believe it to be the fairest approach for all. Every one is equal, equal costs equal insurance, fly what you want but don't ask us to subsidize your choice.

I think that that is one of the most intelligent responses that I have seen regarding this issue. It looks as though that this is the same line that our clubs are going to follow as well.

Bill, AMA 4720

(edited to correct dumb fingers)

< Message edited by Stickbuilder -- 3/12/2008 7:47:41 PM >

_____________________________

It's easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesn't look like an airplane.

(in reply to k3 valley flyer)

Post #: 53

RE: [Awaiting Approval] - 3/12/2008 7:52:32 PM

P-51B

Posts: 6173
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: k3 valley flyer

Bsuted , no we don't preclude anyone or flying anything at our field, 1/2 a, gliders, electric, etc we allow them all and PPP guys are welcome, as long as they pay full AMA dues and full club dues. If you don't like our reasons for that decision so be it, but we believe it to be the fairest approach for all. Every one is equal, equal costs equal insurance, fly what you want but don't ask us to subsidize your choice.

Well stated k3.

_____________________________

In order to think "outside the box", one must first accept there IS a box.

(in reply to k3 valley flyer)

Post #: 54

RE: [Awaiting Approval] - 3/12/2008 8:37:32 PM

-pkh-

Posts: 2380
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Emmaus, PA, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: k3 valley flyer
...we allow them all and PPP guys are welcome, as long as they pay full AMA dues...

PPP = Park Pilot Program, so that is a self contradicting statement. PPP guys, by definition, do not pay full AMA dues. You already said in a previous post that your club will NOT accept PPP guys. I assume you mean your club will allow open AMA members (aka "full" members) to fly park flyers at your club.

_____________________________

Paul - Helis: Two Raptor 50V2s, Venture 30CP, Blade CX2
Planes: Twist 150, Twist 60, Tribute 36, GP .40 Mustang

(in reply to k3 valley flyer)

Post #: 55

RE: [Awaiting Approval] - 3/13/2008 7:06:13 PM

k3 valley flyer

Posts: 327
Joined: 1/9/2004
From: central , IL, USA
Status: offline

STL pilot, in response to you psot 42, you got us, we probably violate some part of the safety code every day, but again you missed my point. If full dues club member Joe flys with out his name in his plane and has an accident, yes AMA insurance may be denied. If PPP club member Bill flys a 8 lb glow and his coverage is only for 2lb electrics and he has an accident, then surely his coverage is also going to be denied. The difference is as a club officer I did not not know Joe did not have his name in his plane, but I did know Bill was only a PPP insured member, because as an officer I am required to verify that every member who flys has a current AMA membership. In Bill's case I was knowingly negligent when I let him fly a plane for which he was not insured, I am liable also. In some cases of law I may even be subject to criminal as well as civil charges, because I allowed it to happen. In Joe's case it was up to him to follow the safety code and as an officer I am not required to inspect his plane everyday. More and more clubs are loking at forming LLC or LP type incorporation, selling shares to members and buying their own property. Without the need to provide insurance coverage to a landowner AMA doesn't have much to sell to the clubs. They should not be muddying the water concerning the product, ie insurance, that keeps them in business.

(in reply to abel_pranger)

Post #: 56

RE: [Awaiting Approval] - 3/13/2008 7:10:43 PM

k3 valley flyer

Posts: 327
Joined: 1/9/2004
From: central , IL, USA
Status: offline

I thought I made it pretty clear, anybody can fly anything they want at our club, as long as they have paid club dues and full membership AMA dues.

(in reply to -pkh-)

Post #: 57

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/13/2008 7:19:19 PM

P-51B

Posts: 6173
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

Nobody has ever flown a plane after just 1 beer?

I can't believe everyone let this slip by.

Stl, are you saying you do this, or know people that do and let it go on???

_____________________________

In order to think "outside the box", one must first accept there IS a box.

(in reply to STLPilot)

Post #: 58

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/13/2008 7:28:41 PM

STLPilot

Posts: 9179
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: offline

quote:

If full dues club member Joe flys with out his name in his plane and has an accident, yes AMA insurance may be denied. If PPP club member Bill flys a 8 lb glow and his coverage is only for 2lb electrics and he has an accident, then surely his coverage is also going to be denied.

You sure about that? Then how does a kid on an ATV that runs into your chain at the entrance to the field get coverage??? Where is that in the safety code or part of his AMA card, which he doesn't even have.

Also you are no more negligent then when John $58 member flies outside the safety code then you are as John who is a PPP member flies outside the safety code. You knew both were members no matter what kind of card they have.

It's ok your club will not allow the PPP, that's one of reasons that PPP came into existence. The AMA made this program very simple to understand. Like I said, some get, others refuse too get it. But only time will tell if you one day HAVE too add the PPP's to your club bylaws. Right now it's easy to say ... no I won't. In the future it may not be that easy.

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Here At The Wall

(in reply to k3 valley flyer)

Post #: 59

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/13/2008 7:32:44 PM

STLPilot

Posts: 9179
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: offline

quote:

Stl, are you saying you do this, or know people that do and let it go on???

Sorry can't answer, off topic.

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Here At The Wall

(in reply to P-51B)

Post #: 60

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/13/2008 9:03:18 PM

-pkh-

Posts: 2380
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Emmaus, PA, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

It's ok your club will not allow the PPP, that's one of reasons that PPP came into existence. The AMA made this program very simple to understand. Like I said, some get, others refuse too get it. But only time will tell if you one day HAVE too add the PPP's to your club bylaws. Right now it's easy to say ... no I won't. In the future it may not be that easy.

I don't think the AMA could or would ever force clubs to accept PP members. It is my understanding that existing AMA charter clubs can have an open or closed membership. Open membership means anyone can join the club, as long as they have an AMA card, pay the club dues, obey the safety rules, etc. Closed membership means only certain people are allowed to join the club (up to the club officers, BOD, membership vote, etc.), and the club can refuse anyone they wish for any reason. The AMA dictates that any member of a charter club MUST be a current member of the AMA, and now with the PPP, clubs can also accept PP members as well, if they wish to do so.

_____________________________

Paul - Helis: Two Raptor 50V2s, Venture 30CP, Blade CX2
Planes: Twist 150, Twist 60, Tribute 36, GP .40 Mustang

(in reply to STLPilot)

Post #: 61

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/13/2008 9:22:43 PM

STLPilot

Posts: 9179
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: offline

quote:

I don't think the AMA could or would ever force clubs to accept PP members.

You're absolutely right. But like I said ... the AMA created the PPP so they can simply find their own house with their own rules and maybe even take a few of the standoffish members club members with them. It's perfectly fine that K3 and several others are against the PPP, it's not like park flyers won't be able to figure out how to start their own club ... the AMA made it very easy. I'm sure you saw the docs, video and marketing materials.

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Here At The Wall

(in reply to The Toolman)

Post #: 62

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/13/2008 11:18:51 PM

Hossfly

Posts: 3836
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: New Caney, TX, USA
Status: online

quote:

STL:
You sure about that? Then how does a kid on an ATV that runs into your chain at the entrance to the field get coverage??? Where is that in the safety code or part of his AMA card, which he doesn't even have.

IIRC, the kid did not need to be "covered". The AMA club/members were "covered". The kid sued and got the money from AMA insurance vice the individuals personally.

Kind of like "Life insurance". The insured is/gets "covered". Others get the fun-money.
There are apples, and there are oranges, stl. They are different. Your grocer/undertaker can explain the differences.

_____________________________

Horrace Cain.
AMA Life L-93, Leader and CD for 45 years
Official Candidate: AMA Ex. Vice Pres. Vote H. Cain. Help move AMA into 21st Century
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(in reply to STLPilot)

Post #: 63

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/14/2008 3:49:40 AM