RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join
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RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/14/2008 11:06:12 PM

abel_pranger

Posts: 2251
Joined: 5/7/2003
From: St Augustine, FL,
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

But I do find it interesting when I read that members belong to the AMA just so they can belong to an AMA club.

I find it interesting that AMA is utterly dependent on that very motivation to stay in business.

Abel

edit: format

< Message edited by abel_pranger -- 3/14/2008 11:07:15 PM >

(in reply to STLPilot)

Post #: 76

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/14/2008 11:49:54 PM

k3 valley flyer

Posts: 320
Joined: 1/9/2004
From: central , IL, USA
Status: offline

STL I am amazed at some of your statements. We are to buy AMA sor some other reason than belonging to an AMA club? We buy AMA so we can belong to an AMA club that has A PLACE TO FLY! You buy gas for some reason other than to make your car go? Your comment not mine. Back to Joe and Bill, if I lend my car to my neighbor Joe, a sober safe driver and he has an accident my insurance will cover me, if I lend my car to Bill and at the time I give it to him I know he is drunk and he has an accident I may have problems not only with my insurance but with the police because I was criminally negilent. Not only that but Bill could sue me for lending him the car when I knew he was not fit to drive. Same issue with letting a PPP flyer fly something he is not insured for. At one time I worked as a claim adjuster for an insurance company, and though not a lawyer as a finance professional been in court more than enough, and still use my business law courses. As a club officer I am not responsible when full dues Joe flies over the pits in violation of the safety code, because when he took off I did not have any way to know he would do that. But when uninsured PPP Bill starts to fire up that 8 lb glow engine I already know he is not insured to fly it. GET IT?

(in reply to STLPilot)

Post #: 77

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/15/2008 2:25:38 AM

STLPilot

Posts: 8971
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: offline

quote:

I find it interesting that AMA is utterly dependent on that very motivation to stay in business.

Well I guess they could depend on member support like other orgs I belong too, that would be neat.

K3, no I don't get it. I get that some people will allow PPP's to join their club and respect the rest, yourself included. But your selling your theory to the wrong guy. I don't live in a world where things are that complicated. I also believe in overcoming a challenge. The sky us up there and we are down here.

_____________________________

Here At The Wall

(in reply to k3 valley flyer)

Post #: 78

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/15/2008 2:59:56 AM

P-51B

Posts: 6143
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot
Did you sign up for the PPP then? You don't need to convince me, I'm a believer!

No, I don't believe in divisive programs.

(Besides, I am already a life member and didn't join for the insurance!)

_____________________________

In order to think "outside the box", one must first accept there IS a box.

(in reply to STLPilot)

Post #: 79

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/15/2008 3:58:58 AM

Hossfly

Posts: 3680
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: New Caney, TX, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: k3 valley flyer

STL I am amazed at some of your statements. We are to buy AMA sor some other reason than belonging to an AMA club? We buy AMA so we can belong to an AMA club that has A PLACE TO FLY! You buy gas for some reason other than to make your car go? Your comment not mine. Back to Joe and Bill, if I lend my car to my neighbor Joe, a sober safe driver and he has an accident my insurance will cover me, if I lend my car to Bill and at the time I give it to him I know he is drunk and he has an accident I may have problems not only with my insurance but with the police because I was criminally negilent. Not only that but Bill could sue me for lending him the car when I knew he was not fit to drive. Same issue with letting a PPP flyer fly something he is not insured for. At one time I worked as a claim adjuster for an insurance company, and though not a lawyer as a finance professional been in court more than enough, and still use my business law courses. As a club officer I am not responsible when full dues Joe flies over the pits in violation of the safety code, because when he took off I did not have any way to know he would do that. But when uninsured PPP Bill starts to fire up that 8 lb glow engine I already know he is not insured to fly it. GET IT?

THANK YOU, k3 valley flyer for that post. It is most refreshing to hear the experiences of someone like you that has been on the firing line and can and will relate the real world here to this forum. Thank you much.

Would you allow me to use this information at my club? I am pushing for the club to set a policy reference the PPP. Right now, the elected club officers don't have a lot of experience in the legal/business world for model aviation. This is good stuff. I would like to advise them if you don't mind. Thanks again for posting it here.

_____________________________

Horrace Cain.
AMA Life L-93, Leader and CD for 45 years

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington

(in reply to k3 valley flyer)

Post #: 80

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/15/2008 7:52:43 AM

KidEpoxy

Posts: 3084
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: online

So the new plan is to buy The Hartford personal insurance and make sure the club can afford Chartering to SiteInsure AMA Flyers, ATV Riders, Burglers, ValidPPP Flyers, and InvalidPPP flyers... then fly whatever you want cause Hartford dont care for your personal and Muncie dont care for the site?

_____________________________

Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

(in reply to Hossfly)

Post #: 81

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/15/2008 8:28:06 AM

littlecrankshaf

Posts: 2072
Joined: 12/9/2001
From: here
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hossfly

quote:

ORIGINAL: k3 valley flyer

STL I am amazed at some of your statements. We are to buy AMA sor some other reason than belonging to an AMA club? We buy AMA so we can belong to an AMA club that has A PLACE TO FLY! You buy gas for some reason other than to make your car go? Your comment not mine. Back to Joe and Bill, if I lend my car to my neighbor Joe, a sober safe driver and he has an accident my insurance will cover me, if I lend my car to Bill and at the time I give it to him I know he is drunk and he has an accident I may have problems not only with my insurance but with the police because I was criminally negilent. Not only that but Bill could sue me for lending him the car when I knewhe was not fit to drive. Same issue with letting a PPP flyer fly something he is not insured for. At one time I worked as a claim adjuster for an insurance company, and though not a lawyer as a finance professional been in court more than enough, and still use my business law courses. As a club officer I am not responsible when full dues Joe flies over the pits in violation of the safety code, because when he took off I did not have any way to know he would do that. But when uninsured PPP Bill starts to fire up that 8 lb glow engine I already know he is not insured to fly it. GET IT?

THANK YOU, k3 valley flyer for that post. It is most refreshing to hear the experiences of someone like you that has been on the firing line and can and will relate the real world here to this forum. Thank you much.

Would you allow me to use this information at my club? I am pushing for the club to set a policy reference the PPP. Right now, the elected club officers don't have a lot of experience in the legal/business world for model aviation. This is good stuff. I would like to advise them if you don't mind. Thanks again for posting it here.

Hmmm...I guess k3 valley flyer's post is sorta a mixed bag of fruit and very well could be taken a couple of ways. There is certainly one point that is quite clear...by policing or meddling in another flyer's business you may very well become privy to something that may ultimately be used to make oneself liable for his actions...hmmm...maybe just minding one's own business is the best answer after all...Mom and Dad told me so but now it is more clear than ever. Thanks so much k3 valley flyer for reaffirming such sage advice.

The other salient point is the apparent acceptance to be held accountable for other's actions...at some point we need to be very firm with the AMA and denounce our pledge to be AMA's police...they orchestrated this scenario and they should be held accountable. It is ludicrous to even image that such stuff could be policed. From my vantage point, the whoever in this example would appear as just another modeler getting ready to fly his 8 lb glow engine R/C plane... nothing unusual about that...yep that’s right...after all I have my own model to concentrate on.

< Message edited by littlecrankshaf -- 3/15/2008 8:30:12 AM >

_____________________________

Wow! Another epiphany…that is why the suckups suckup. Super sucking protection power. Yea baby.

(in reply to Hossfly)

Post #: 82

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/15/2008 12:52:13 PM

P-51B

Posts: 6143
Joined: 10/11/2002
From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: k3 valley flyer

STL I am amazed at some of your statements. We are to buy AMA sor some other reason than belonging to an AMA club? We buy AMA so we can belong to an AMA club that has A PLACE TO FLY! You buy gas for some reason other than to make your car go? Your comment not mine. Back to Joe and Bill, if I lend my car to my neighbor Joe, a sober safe driver and he has an accident my insurance will cover me, if I lend my car to Bill and at the time I give it to him I know he is drunk and he has an accident I may have problems not only with my insurance but with the police because I was criminally negilent. Not only that but Bill could sue me for lending him the car when I knew he was not fit to drive. Same issue with letting a PPP flyer fly something he is not insured for. At one time I worked as a claim adjuster for an insurance company, and though not a lawyer as a finance professional been in court more than enough, and still use my business law courses. As a club officer I am not responsible when full dues Joe flies over the pits in violation of the safety code, because when he took off I did not have any way to know he would do that. But when uninsured PPP Bill starts to fire up that 8 lb glow engine I already know he is not insured to fly it. GET IT?

Great post k3, maybe now others will understand!

_____________________________

In order to think "outside the box", one must first accept there IS a box.

(in reply to k3 valley flyer)

Post #: 83

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/15/2008 1:16:45 PM

STLPilot

Posts: 8971
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: offline

Well now is your chance guys. If your so adamant about the collapse of the PPP, here is your chance! If you think you stumbled upon this life threatening situation, then why not compose a letter to the AMA letting them know your discovery so they can shut it down. I mean you guys go on day after day going on years now how you feel about the PPP, so what are you waiting for???

_____________________________

Here At The Wall

(in reply to P-51B)

Post #: 84

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/15/2008 3:52:25 PM

littlecrankshaf

Posts: 2072
Joined: 12/9/2001
From: here
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: STLPilot

Well now is your chance guys. If your so adamant about the collapse of the PPP, here is your chance! If you think you stumbled upon this life threatening situation, then why not compose a letter to the AMA letting them know your discovery so they can shut it down. I mean you guys go on day after day going on years now how you feel about the PPP, so what are you waiting for???

You are so funny. We all know they read this forum. Letter...shmetter your a funny feller

How about the PPP flyer guy writing a letter to the club to inform them he is going to fly a 8# model before anyone in the club could be held accountable...same great logic.

_____________________________

Wow! Another epiphany…that is why the suckups suckup. Super sucking protection power. Yea baby.

(in reply to STLPilot)

Post #: 85

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/15/2008 6:23:55 PM

KidEpoxy

Posts: 3084
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: online

I thought we were all going to get copies of a letter from AMA telling clubs its ok to not police/enforce/inspect the PPP.
Or will that be a PDF on the AMA www?

Oddly, the folks that were all bent out of shape about who'd be watching the PayPerDay guys & checking their insurance & inspecting their planes... seems some the folks all concerned about the burden of letting PPD in dont seem to mind letting PP in and havung to go thru all that with them. The cumbersome legwork of the clubs is horrible, unless Muncie is getting a check, then the clubs have to put up with it... until this thread shown Muncie said dont worry about it.

..

I'm sure we can put this aspect of discussion away with a simple call from the guy that was told not to worry. He can just ask them to repeat that, and send a letter to that effect to the club, and then come back here to let us know Muncie recanted the dont worry line in light of folks hearing about it. We all know the burden of PPP inspection is on the club (just like other AMA codes), despite dont worry about it comments.

_____________________________

Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

(in reply to littlecrankshaf)

Post #: 86

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/15/2008 9:22:28 PM

combatpigg

Posts: 9258
Joined: 11/22/2003
From: arlington, WA, USA
Status: online

You guys are right, I doubt that many clubs will want to have yet more stuff to police.
The success of the program will depend on local factors. In areas where AMA clubs are doing well, there will be no need to upset the apple cart. In areas were flying space is restricted and where clubs need new blood, of course they will be willing to play ball with the program.
Time will tell what the net effect will be. It is dillusional to think that the program will have any real impact, might as well go duck hunting with a .22 pistol.

_____________________________

Led Zeppelin is NOT "old fogie" music.

(in reply to KidEpoxy)

Post #: 87

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/16/2008 7:18:56 PM

k3 valley flyer

Posts: 320
Joined: 1/9/2004
From: central , IL, USA
Status: offline

Mind your own business and every thing will be ok because we don't know what type AMA membeship they have? As an officer when I sign the charter renewal every year I acknowledge that I will verify current AMA coverage for every member who flies, in that process I can't help but know who is PPP and who is full. But when PPP Bill flies a fellow member's 8lb glow just turn your head and everything will be OK. Better hope so because ain't likely anyone's AMA insurance will be any good. The whole issue with PPP is that it complicates everything, if you can live with that so be it. Until AMA issues a press release that clubs accepting PPP fliers are not responsible for enforcing the limits of those memberships, (which they can't do because then everyone goes PPP because it is cheaper and still flies their jets), not wise to assume that the club's coverage will be good. Anyone who is logical knows the PPP guy won't have coverage for something greater than a 2lb electric. If you have a drivers license and insurance for a passenger car only, ask your agent what happens if you go drive an 18 wheeler and have an accident. Who ever called AMA and was told not to worry about it got a bum steer! Try getting that response in writing and let me know what happens.

(in reply to littlecrankshaf)

Post #: 88

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/16/2008 7:54:11 PM

The Toolman

Posts: 599
Joined: 11/29/2005
From: midwest, MO, USA
Status: offline

quote:

Who ever called AMA and was told not to worry about it got a bum steer! Try getting that response in writing and let me know what happens.

There ya go.... Like I said before, an your confirming it, something said over the phone ain't worth a hill o beans in court. I'd want it in writing on an official ama letterhead from them to all clubs concerned. This is another reason here why PPP's aren't going to fly at our field unless they have the full $58 membership.

Ama is interested in getting the $$ right now to feed the pig, an could care less about what else could happen. As it is now, they have almost took themselves out of any insurance responsibility anyway.

Ronnie

_____________________________

PB2718

(in reply to k3 valley flyer)

Post #: 89

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 3/16/2008 8:44:23 PM