RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join
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RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 4/10/2008 11:25:19 PM

Robotech

Posts: 843
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Pine Bluff, AR,
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
As for the clubs looking forward by cuting the electric 2/60's a dues break,
Forward looking would have been those clubs cutting them a break back when they were still just Parkie PF AMA'ers. Where was the forward thinking clubs last year? Muncie was absolutely not stopping the clubs from giving PF Parkies discounts in '07 and before.

I can only speak to our club's requirements but we, in accordance with our agreement with the Parks Dept., require AMA membership for insurance purposes. No wiggle room there. Dues? Same privelges, same price.

quote:

ORIGINAL:littlecrankshaf
Hmmm... Being robbed at gun point and being told give me your money or I'll blow your head off, would also give you choices...wouldn't it??? Your previous point goes without saying... as we always have a choice but that doesn't give any merit that any particular choice is a good option...IMO this PPP stuff is a bad option even though it is by choice.

If you want to use that as an anology to my point then for it to be accurate you would have to add my third option which in your scenario would be to just walk away ($0 option).

quote:

ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

As I have said a score of times,
I want the Parkies, the PF Fliers, the guys labeled Rogue or Outlaw, to join our clubs as fellow AMA peers.
I would like to see something done to entice them to do that,
but PPP is a poor way to do that, and should be replaced with a better plan to get the PF fliers to be AMA equals.

I believe everyone would like them to join the clubs as fellow AMA peers. The fact that they have a valid AMA membership makes them peers. We (our club) make no distiction. I know no one in our club would look down on someone because of their level of membership in the AMA. In fact the only time AMA even comes up at the field is in the context of do you AMA insurance or not.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy
As such, this thread being about letting them in clubs;
I dont think glow clubs should allow them in, facilitating PPP to not form thier own clubs,
and certainly dont give guys a price break just because they are quiet at a noisey club.

Indeed, this thread is about the clubs not the PPP program. I've not read a single valid, practical, reason why an independent AMA chartered club would refuse PPP'ers as club members at regular dues rates. If they pay the same dues as everyone else they should get the same rights to use the facilities. In the same regard, they should not have special privileges either, I.E. electric only days or reduced fees.

(in reply to KidEpoxy)

Post #: 176

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 4/11/2008 1:30:07 AM

Bob Mitchell

Posts: 139
Joined: 3/23/2008
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Status: offline

>> Ummmm, You haven't lost me yet.......Of course, that's because I do build all my planes. Doesn't make me any better flyer though, unless it might be due to the fact that I know what mine is made of, and from. I don't have wing failures though, nor do my firewalls fall out. <<

Wasn't refering to anyone specifically, just trying to make a point. I usually read 6-7 different sections on the board, and am honestly impressed with the willingness to help newcomers and a general air of inclusiveness.

Bob

_____________________________

Bob Mitchell AMA 903015
Hanger 9 Alpha 60, Evolution 61NT, Futaba 7C 2.4MHz

(in reply to Stickbuilder)

Post #: 177

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 4/11/2008 1:35:04 AM

Bob Mitchell

Posts: 139
Joined: 3/23/2008
From: Lexington, KY, USA
Status: offline

>> As I have said a score of times, I want the Parkies, the PF Fliers, the guys labeled Rogue or Outlaw, to join our clubs as fellow AMA peers. <<

Well, that's not what you said in the post to which I replied.

And you didn't really answer the question. Why, exactly, do you not want PF in your club?

_____________________________

Bob Mitchell AMA 903015
Hanger 9 Alpha 60, Evolution 61NT, Futaba 7C 2.4MHz

(in reply to KidEpoxy)

Post #: 178

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 4/11/2008 1:35:28 AM

Stickbuilder

Posts: 5029
Joined: 11/20/2005
From: leesburg, FL, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mitchell170

>> Ummmm, You haven't lost me yet.......Of course, that's because I do build all my planes. Doesn't make me any better flyer though, unless it might be due to the fact that I know what mine is made of, and from. I don't have wing failures though, nor do my firewalls fall out. <<

Wasn't refering to anyone specifically, just trying to make a point. I usually read 6-7 different sections on the board, and am honestly impressed with the willingness to help newcomers and a general air of inclusiveness.

Bob

Have a look in the Vintage and Antique forum and have a look at the WACO YMF thread. I think you might like it.

Bill, AMA 4720
WACO Brotherhood #1

_____________________________

It's easy, just glue all the pieces together, and sand off everything that doesn't look like an airplane.

(in reply to Bob Mitchell)

Post #: 179

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 4/11/2008 2:22:55 AM

Jim Thomerson

Posts: 2778
Joined: 10/9/2002
From: Austin, TX, USA
Status: offline

I belong to two AMA charter clubs. Both are control line clubs, so I have not thought much about all this.

(in reply to Stickbuilder)

Post #: 180

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 4/11/2008 7:24:27 AM

Hossfly

Posts: 3680
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: New Caney, TX, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Robotech

Indeed, this thread is about the clubs not the PPP program. I've not read a single valid, practical, reason why an independent AMA chartered club would refuse PPP'ers as club members at regular dues rates. If they pay the same dues as everyone else they should get the same rights to use the facilities. In the same regard, they should not have special privileges either, I.E. electric only days or reduced fees.

Robotech, as a RCer for only 7 years, you possibly may not have seen a lot more that happens here and there. In addition, is it just even remotely possible that you haven't read, "....a single valid, practical, reason why an independent AMA chartered club would refuse PPP'ers as club members at regular dues rates." is simply because you have placed yourself as judge and jury in determining what constitutes, "....a single valid, practical, reason why an independent AMA chartered club would refuse PPP'ers as club members at regular dues rates?"

That being said, I have a reason that for me constitutes "....a single valid, practical, reason why an independent AMA chartered club would refuse PPP'ers as club members at regular dues rates." Whether you accept it or not, my mind is made up and no need to try to change it.

That reason is: $2.5 million liability insurance for first class and $500,000 liability insurance for the economy class. If a PF prop catches me in the eye, unless Joe Parkee Flyee has significant assets, that $500,000 is insufficent to compensate me for a condition where I may not be able to function outside being a burden on others.

Most clubs obtain AMA Charters and require AMA membership for one reason: INSURANCE. If the economy class wants my first class flying facility, then they have to upgrade to first class AMA. That is as simple as I can make it for you. It is valid for me and as far as you are concerned, that is the only validation required.

Other valid items are: 1.) the constant checking things ref. the PF is an additional burden on an already stressed group known as Charter Club officers, those volunteers that give up their hobby time to keep clubs functioning.
2.) keeping sure PF stays within the limitations, more work for the real AMA members and 3.) the usual crap a club has to endure when there are two different factions within the group.

AMA made this bed with rocks, let AMA sleep in it.

_____________________________

Horrace Cain.
AMA Life L-93, Leader and CD for 45 years

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington

(in reply to Robotech)

Post #: 181

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 4/11/2008 2:15:12 PM

The Toolman

Posts: 599
Joined: 11/29/2005
From: midwest, MO, USA
Status: offline

Hoss, the insurance reason is why our club has opted to not include Parkies unless they have the full boat membership. Otherwise, we would be tickled to death to have more members at our 12 person club no matter what they fly.

Ronnie

_____________________________

PB2718

(in reply to Hossfly)

Post #: 182

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 4/11/2008 4:28:01 PM

Robotech

Posts: 843
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Pine Bluff, AR,
Status: offline

quote:

Original: Hossfly

Robotech, as a RCer for only 7 years, you possibly may not have seen a lot more that happens here and there. In addition, is it just even remotely possible that you haven't read, "....a single valid, practical, reason why an independent AMA chartered club would refuse PPP'ers as club members at regular dues rates." is simply because you have placed yourself as judge and jury in determining what constitutes, "....a single valid, practical, reason why an independent AMA chartered club would refuse PPP'ers as club members at regular dues rates?"

Well of course I've placed myself as judge and jury in what I determine to be a single valid, practical, reason why an independent AMA chartered club would refuse PPP'ers as club members at regular dues rates. Who should I place as judge and jury concerning what I believe?

quote:

That being said, I have a reason that for me constitutes "....a single valid, practical, reason why an independent AMA chartered club would refuse PPP'ers as club members at regular dues rates." Whether you accept it or not, my mind is made up and no need to try to change it.

See my response above. It applies to you too? Yes? I'm not trying to change your mind, I'm expressing my opinion, just as you have. Your tenure in the hobby does not make dissenting views less valid. Cast your club vote in the negative. One man, one vote. If your club votes the other way then you'll have the choice of abiding by it or starting/buying another club.

quote:

That reason is: $2.5 million liability insurance for first class and $500,000 liability insurance for the economy class. If a PF prop catches me in the eye, unless Joe Parkee Flyee has significant assets, that $500,000 is insufficent to compensate me for a condition where I may not be able to function outside being a burden on others.

Perhaps you can quote a single instance of Joe Parkie taking out an eyeball with damages in excess of $1/2 mil? Insurance coverage is all about risk. How about a member that has an annual income of $100K that gets hit by a 40 size quickee 500 between the eyes and ends up brain dead. Is $2.5 mil insufficient to "compensate me for a condition where I may not be able to function outside being a burden on others"? How about my family?

quote:

Most clubs obtain AMA Charters and require AMA membership for one reason: INSURANCE. If the economy class wants my first class flying facility, then they have to upgrade to first class AMA. That is as simple as I can make it for you. It is valid for me and as far as you are concerned, that is the only validation required.

As it stands the AMA Chartered club's liability remains at the high limit regardless of the AMA members "status level". Are you saying it is not? In the context of the club, there is no difference. Does your first class flying facility require members to have home owners insurance in addition to AMA liability? If you or your club get sued for $2.6 mil. wheres the additional $100K going to come from?

quote:

Other valid items are: 1.) the constant checking things ref. the PF is an additional burden on an already stressed group known as Charter Club officers, those volunteers that give up their hobby time to keep clubs functioning.
2.) keeping sure PF stays within the limitations, more work for the real AMA members and 3.) the usual crap a club has to endure when there are two different factions within the group.

1 and 2 - you're pretty much saying the same thing. Both being exaggerated. Really, how much additional "work" would be involved? A goober that ignores rules and limitations is just as, if not more, likely to be flying a Avistar with a 46FX on it.

3 - If you have that attitude then you are the one promoting divisiveness and factionalism within your club. It seems that those I have encountered with a similar mindset are the cause of division within clubs and that division will exist with or without the AMA's PPP members.

quote:

AMA made this bed with rocks, let AMA sleep in it.

I seems they are willing to do so. When and if the "bed with rocks" fails they will change it.

(in reply to Hossfly)

Post #: 183

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 4/11/2008 6:39:36 PM

littlecrankshaf

Posts: 2072
Joined: 12/9/2001
From: here
Status: offline

Guys,

This recent line of discussion is contingent on some theory that a member to member accident would be somehow be automatically covered under the AMA insurance liability afforded the respective members.

The reality is that the $25,000 injury portion would likely be all you would ever see unless you sued the landowner and/or the other member. Then you better have a real good lawyer as AMA and the AMA’s insurance company certainly will have plenty. The AMA will become your adversary at that point…

_____________________________

Wow! Another epiphany…that is why the suckups suckup. Super sucking protection power. Yea baby.

(in reply to Robotech)

Post #: 184

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 4/11/2008 8:40:33 PM

mongo

Posts: 1122
Joined: 12/5/2001
From: Midland, Republic of TEXAS, TX, USA
Status: offline

did you hear that?

just now?

a collective "AHHHH S H I T" from the direction of indiana.

those folks were hoping desperately that this line of thought would never make it to daylight.

LCS done did it again.

< Message edited by mongo -- 4/11/2008 8:41:11 PM >

_____________________________

When they outlaw R/C, only outlaws will have R/C

(in reply to littlecrankshaf)

Post #: 185

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 4/11/2008 9:03:29 PM

Robotech

Posts: 843
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Pine Bluff, AR,
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

Guys,

This recent line of discussion is contingent on some theory that a member to member accident would be somehow be automatically covered under the AMA insurance liability afforded the respective members.

The reality is that the $25,000 injury portion would likely be all you would ever see unless you sued the landowner and/or the other member. Then you better have a real good lawyer as AMA and the AMA’s insurance company certainly will have plenty. The AMA will become your adversary at that point…

Did not know that. That certainly does bite.

So if Joe Quikee 500, my fellow Platinum AMA peer, nails me between the eyes my maximum $ would be 25K? Same $ amount if Joe PF slices out my eyeball?

(in reply to littlecrankshaf)

Post #: 186

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 4/14/2008 9:35:57 AM

littlecrankshaf

Posts: 2072
Joined: 12/9/2001
From: here
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Robotech

Did not know that. That certainly does bite.

So if Joe Quikee 500, my fellow Platinum AMA peer, nails me between the eyes my maximum $ would be 25K? Same $ amount if Joe PF slices out my eyeball?

Yep...doesn''t matter if the other flyer has AMA, AMA* or neither/none. You still have up to a $25,000 EXCESS ACCIDENTAL MEDICAL EXPENSE Benefit.

_____________________________

Wow! Another epiphany…that is why the suckups suckup. Super sucking protection power. Yea baby.

(in reply to Robotech)

Post #: 187

RE: Will your club allow PPP members to join - 4/14/2008 9:51:24 AM

STLPilot