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RE: building a speed cowl - 3/15/2008 5:20:20 AM   
iron eagel



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Dick,

Regarding cowls….

Whenever the prop spins the cowl is pressurize, and yes the air must be vented.
But as far as the venting providing all the airflow you are mistaken, the intake is not just an opening to a vacuum. Air is pushed into the cowl by both the prop and by ram air effect when the plane is in motion.

To reinforce that statement…

On page 77 Chapter 17 of Andy Lennon’s book the section about cowls says, “Cooling is adequate, as proven by test runs on hot summer days at full rpm with the model stationary and consuming full tanks of fuel.” It also says that “Prop driven air enters the diffuser slows down, cools the cylinder and muffler, expands because of the heat speeds up in the nozzles and exits at considerable velocity”

By no means am I saying that the exit is unimportant just the opposite it is. But the prop does provide some airflow, as does ram air and must be considered, as well as the exit.

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RE: building a speed cowl - 3/15/2008 5:24:07 AM   
pimmnz


 

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And in flight school you are dealing with big engines, inlets, and much higher airspeeds than our little models. What works at that size and speed does not work at our sizes and speeds. Something to do with the relative sizes of the air and the model.
Evan.

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RE: building a speed cowl - 3/15/2008 5:39:14 AM   
iron eagel



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Evan,
While my prior post was from full scale, the last post said the same thing, and that book was about cowl design on model airplanes. In a full scale you can not get enough air through the cowl with just the prop to cool it on the ground, even at full rpm to cool the engine, you need the ram air and the vacuum effect of the exit as well.
I am not trying to start an argument, As a matter of fact I consider the venting to be a very critical! My original post was posing a question about how and where to vent and how it could be done while taking the entire structure of the airframe and resulting drag into account.

Either way we need to get the air through the cowl over the cylinder/s and vent that hot air to provide cooling.

And to get back to that..

Given that your exit air is going to create a "separation bubble" and thereby cause induced drag would it not be best to duct the heated air as far to the rear as possible?
I know that most cowl designs simply dump the air out the sides or rear of the cowl on top of the wing; doesn't that cause a disruption of the airflow over the top of the delta plane form?
Where you have an airplane that has a high induced drag isn't this a problem, that you could reduce by ducting the heated air toward the rear of the plane as much as possible?
Wouldn't the best solution be to have your exit facing the rear of the craft at the tail even if you need to add a bit of weight to duct it?


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< Message edited by iron eagel -- 3/15/2008 6:54:35 AM >


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RE: building a speed cowl - 3/15/2008 10:10:47 AM   
da Rock



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quote:

ORIGINAL: iron eagel

Given that your exit air is going to create a "separation bubble" and thereby cause induced drag would it not be best to duct the heated air as far to the rear as possible?
I know that most cowl designs simply dump the air out the sides or rear of the cowl on top of the wing; doesn't that cause a disruption of the airflow over the top of the delta plane form?
Where you have an airplane that has a high induced drag isn't this a problem, that you could reduce by ducting the heated air toward the rear of the plane as much as possible?
Wouldn't the best solution be to have your exit facing the rear of the craft at the tail even if you need to add a bit of weight to duct it?



Actually, the Corsair was one of the fastest airplanes of it's era. And it's engine heat was released almost uniformly around the entire fuselage. But the Mustang, on the other hand was like our models and didn't have cylinders all around the front of the airplane. So the Mustang solution was basically to create a cowl for the heat exchanger and it's sort of a parallel to our problem with our one cylinder heat source.

If we look at the Mustang situation, maybe we can see what made it work and how our engine cowling might do the same.

The Mustang's underslung "cowling" was also basically a vertical arrangement. And the heat exhaust was proportionally aft of the intake. I'd guess it was about 5 times the width of the "cowl" aft of the intake of that cowl. That would put the exit back into air that had already been turbulated. And then, they basically didn't flatten the exit down to the shape of the fuselage, they sorta stood it up. Look at the dump gates of that era. The Thunderbolt had a couple and they were basically as tall as they were wide. When the Mustang needed max area for heat exhaust, the gate opened out. It basically got as tall as it was wide. Those designers increased their area outward. That would do a couple of things. It wouldn't blanket more fuselage area, but only what was already seeing turbulent exhaust. It would also place the even hotter exhaust air farther out from the boundary layer.

Our speed cowls for single cylinder engines place a basically rectangular heat exhaust "on edge" so that as little boundary layer area is affected as possible. Our cowl pretty much dumps most of the hot air appreciably "above" the fuselage. If you will, we could look at the exhaust more as a ribbon than a bubble. And the narrowest part of the ribbon is the only part that is disrupting whatever boundary layer exists.

We're already dumping the air as far OUT from the fuselage as possible. And we've hopefully done a decent job of making the cowl so that it disrupts the flow around it a whole lot less than the naked cylinder did. So the airflow is less turbulated because of the cowl, and the exhaust is being beneficially distributed as a ribbon with minimal contact to the fuselage.

AND THINK ABOUT THIS DETAIL............ The basically vertical rectangle of the exhaust doesn't have to open completely down to the fuselage. I used to build my rat cowls with an exhaust opening up the fin a bit. The cowl had no opening at all at the base where it came up out of the fuselage. I used to kid myself that I had some understanding of how thick the boundary layer was around the fuselage, and wouldn't have the exhaust dump down in that area. Did it work? I got not the slightest idea, because I never tested it. But I guarantee you, it being a CL environment, if we had tested it we would have known with decent certainty. And look at the Mustang's setup. Look at the intake and you'll see they stood the opening away from the fuselage. I'm betting that was a boundary layer consideration. Heck, look at every projecting intake you can find on WWII a/c. And then look at the exhausts. I'd bet the problem of downstream "bubbles" isn't a major consideration.



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RE: building a speed cowl - 3/15/2008 11:56:08 AM   
dick Hanson



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quote:

ORIGINAL: iron eagel

Dick,

Regarding cowls….

Whenever the prop spins the cowl is pressurize, and yes the air must be vented.
But as far as the venting providing all the airflow you are mistaken, the intake is not just an opening to a vacuum. Air is pushed into the cowl by both the prop and by ram air effect when the plane is in motion.

To reinforce that statement…

On page 77 Chapter 17 of Andy Lennon’s book the section about cowls says, “Cooling is adequate, as proven by test runs on hot summer days at full rpm with the model stationary and consuming full tanks of fuel.” It also says that “Prop driven air enters the diffuser slows down, cools the cylinder and muffler, expands because of the heat speeds up in the nozzles and exits at considerable velocity”

By no means am I saying that the exit is unimportant just the opposite it is. But the prop does provide some airflow, as does ram air and must be considered, as well as the exit.

I could not agree less with Andy Lennon's comments on cooling -
perhaps it worked on his glo engined test setup but I am into fact borne of my own and others direct experience - the setup as described above, will roast a gasoline engine.
Unless you have worked with gasoline engines -you will not see how rapidly the engine can overheat. The glo fueled setups are far easier to cool

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RE: building a speed cowl - 3/15/2008 7:14:25 PM   
da Rock



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Andy happens to be right. It's actually not his original thought or design. He says that someplace. He's actually sketching out the important features required that earlier pioneers laid out. And he's doing it in a book for beginners to aerodynamics.

You have to have an opening or inlet. You have to have an exhaust. You have to have a path connecting the two that effectively moves the cooling incoming air to where it needs to be and in such a way that its flow isn't restircted. That's not Andy's discovery, it's accepted knowledge. And he lays out some proportions that work for first attempts to build the thing.

Dick happens to be right for sure, that if you think you can make the opening work from the prop blast you're going to have more of a blast furnace inside the cowl. And that just having an opening in front of the engine isn't going to do any good by itself.

Plug the exhaust of Dick's airplane and his warnings all come true. You can't rely on the prop or just having an opening and you need good flow.

If you have an adequate exhaust opening behind Dick's prop/intake/cylinder head and it works, AND if the exhaust opening in Andy's basic layout is open, the airstream in front of Andy's intake or Dick's intake goes right into that hole quite happily, and any wash off the prop blades that can will go right into the same intake hole.

Any faceoff over which design feature makes the system work has to finally boil down to a simple understanding that they all are required, but not necessarily in the same proportions for every type of engine or fuselage shape. And the proportions are even open to argument if you consider the type model more exactly......... like that delta you want to go faster...............

< Message edited by da Rock -- 3/15/2008 7:49:29 PM >

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RE: building a speed cowl - 3/15/2008 7:41:15 PM   
da Rock



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The pressure cowl's on T-6s, Corsairs, Martin 440s, whatever..... work like gangbusters. Those huge radial engines actually present a big flat front to the air they run into. And they fill a big amount of the fan area, the area the prop sweeps. And when you look into those big openings the exterior sheet metal doesn't cover, you see those cylinders are exposed completely IN FRONT. But that the rest of the open area is completely filled with baffles that block off almost all that open area between the jugs.

What the air that's coming right at the front of those big cowled engines encounters is big area with some relatively smaller "crevices" it can slip through. And since those crevices are "sucking" that's where the air goes. And even the air that was whacked by the prop goes on through those openings. Why? Because a pressure cowl sucks.

To get a cowl to work, you've got to balance the design so that it'll work. Don't have enough exhaust opening and no amount of increased intake will make up for it. Have the exhaust opening in a negative pressure area, and you might get even better cooling from whatever size opening you built up front. But don't look for the prop to help out. Start with an opening that is about the size of the front of the cylinder/head and you'll probably have a good intake area. "Pressure cowl" the path through the engine (block the air from being able to avoid what needs to be cooled). And have an opening that's about 1.5X the intake. And the cowl should cool your model airplane engine. Now..............

We found that for speed applications, the basic description can very easily be changed. Lot's of speed and racing engines didn't need to be cooled beyond what they'd get with total exposure, no cowling at all. After all, the designers knew that lots of purchasers weren't about to build a cowl. The C/L speed boys discovered that heat made speed. If you cooled 'em too much, they didn't actually put out. After they stumbled on that they very quickly found out how costly going overboard the other way could be.

If you want the delta to go faster, adding a cowl probably will help. Coming up with one that gives the ultimate increase ain't gonna' be close to easy. Heck, it's not even easy to discuss it.

< Message edited by da Rock -- 3/15/2008 7:42:58 PM >

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RE: building a speed cowl - 3/15/2008 7:48:13 PM   
iron eagel



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quote:

ORIGINAL: da Rock

Actually, the Corsair was one of the fastest airplanes of it's era. And it's engine heat was released almost uniformly around the entire fuselage. But the Mustang, on the other hand was like our models and didn't have cylinders all around the front of the airplane. So the Mustang solution was basically to create a cowl for the heat exchanger and it's sort of a parallel to our problem with our one cylinder heat source.

If we look at the Mustang situation, maybe we can see what made it work and how our engine cowling might do the same.

The Mustang's underslung "cowling" was also basically a vertical arrangement. And the heat exhaust was proportionally aft of the intake. I'd guess it was about 5 times the width of the "cowl" aft of the intake of that cowl. That would put the exit back into air that had already been turbulated. And then, they basically didn't flatten the exit down to the shape of the fuselage, they sorta stood it up. Look at the dump gates of that era. The Thunderbolt had a couple and they were basically as tall as they were wide. When the Mustang needed max area for heat exhaust, the gate opened out. It basically got as tall as it was wide. Those designers increased their area outward. That would do a couple of things. It wouldn't blanket more fuselage area, but only what was already seeing turbulent exhaust. It would also place the even hotter exhaust air farther out from the boundary layer.

Our speed cowls for single cylinder engines place a basically rectangular heat exhaust "on edge" so that as little boundary layer area is affected as possible. Our cowl pretty much dumps most of the hot air appreciably "above" the fuselage. If you will, we could look at the exhaust more as a ribbon than a bubble. And the narrowest part of the ribbon is the only part that is disrupting whatever boundary layer exists.

We're already dumping the air as far OUT from the fuselage as possible. And we've hopefully done a decent job of making the cowl so that it disrupts the flow around it a whole lot less than the naked cylinder did. So the airflow is less turbulated because of the cowl, and the exhaust is being beneficially distributed as a ribbon with minimal contact to the fuselage.

AND THINK ABOUT THIS DETAIL............ The basically vertical rectangle of the exhaust doesn't have to open completely down to the fuselage. I used to build my rat cowls with an exhaust opening up the fin a bit. The cowl had no opening at all at the base where it came up out of the fuselage. I used to kid myself that I had some understanding of how thick the boundary layer was around the fuselage, and wouldn't have the exhaust dump down in that area. Did it work? I got not the slightest idea, because I never tested it. But I guarantee you, it being a CL environment, if we had tested it we would have known with decent certainty. And look at the Mustang's setup. Look at the intake and you'll see they stood the opening away from the fuselage. I'm betting that was a boundary layer consideration. Heck, look at every projecting intake you can find on WWII a/c. And then look at the exhausts. I'd bet the problem of downstream "bubbles" isn't a major consideration.




Thanks DA,
The P-51 was one of the planes, that after looking at the setup, I began to wonder about the interaction with the boundry layer. That and the intake on the F-16 made me wonder what was the thought behind that....
It seems that there is some consideration about the effects of intake and exhaust on the boundry layer but little documentation about what those effects are.
I wish I could still fly CL, but since having surgery on my shoulder several years ago I can not put that type of strain on my arm, because it is such a good way to experiment with designs. So lacking the proper instrumentation and obviously not being an aeronautical engineer, I have to ask questions here and then take a SWAG as to how to proceed.
And it is cool that we have so many folks who have experince and knowledge on here to get information from. On one discussion we we having regarding wing tips Michael Selig passed along some information, what more can you ask for?

I have a few more irons in the fire to deal with before I can start on my speed plane build. But where this was being discussed now I wanted to get into the fray as it where and see if we could build a consenses as to some aerodynamic issues that should be addressed. As we all know deltas have so many diferent things that effect them, I was truly interested in what the effects of of cowling an engine would have on the airframe, given the many quirks you encounter with deltas.

Thanks again all...

_____________________________

The Wrights never crashed, they only had hard landings. I 've had some hard landings myself. AMA EAA AOPA revver #185

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RE: building a speed cowl - 3/15/2008 7:54:54 PM   
iron eagel



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quote:

ORIGINAL: da Rock

If you want the delta to go faster, adding a cowl probably will help. Coming up with one that gives the ultimate increase ain't gonna' be close to easy. Heck, it's not even easy to discuss it.


You can say that again...
LOL

_____________________________

The Wrights never crashed, they only had hard landings. I 've had some hard landings myself. AMA EAA AOPA revver #185

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       Post #: 34

RE: building a speed cowl - 3/16/2008 1:10:24 AM   
HighPlains


 

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The inlets on the P-51 and F16 are designed to operate outside the boundary layer of the fuselage.

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RE: building a speed cowl - 3/16/2008 1:50:27 AM   
iron eagel



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Thanks for confirming that, it is easy to look at something and assume the idea behind it, either right or wrong. Although in these cases it seems that there is little room for doubt.
It is interesting on how little information there is about boundary layer considerations when it comes to model design. Granted it is probably not all that important for most models, or modelers, it is only when you start to get to the edges of the flight envelope of model designs that it might be that small consideration that makes a difference...



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The Wrights never crashed, they only had hard landings. I 've had some hard landings myself. AMA EAA AOPA revver #185

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RE: building a speed cowl - 3/17/2008 5:38:55 AM   
HighPlains


 

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Here is a cowl as used on a .40 sized Formula One model. These engines ran 65% nitro turning over 22K on the ground and above 27K in the air. They were generally started 60 seconds before launch, so they need to cool well on the ground as well. Since the attrition rates in F1 were fairly high, the designs were refined to a high degree including cooling the engine.

The inlet was 5/16" by 1"

The vent behind the head was 1" by 3/16". The small hole was for a mini-alligator clip for the plug.

The exhaust pipe is 7/8" diameter with a 1/4" gap for about half the pipe diameter. So it would be abou