Rudder to Aileron Control - Part One (Full Version)

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Swift427 -> Rudder to Aileron Control - Part One (3/13/2008 7:19:44 PM)

First is a parkflyer newbie always considered a newbie until they have earned their wings learning to successfully fly an aileron plane? Can a 3-channel aileron trainer(fixed rudder) advance a newbie parkflyer to that of an 'intermediate' pilot or is a parkflyer always a newbie until they have successfully mastered a 4-channel aircraft at least on low rate by performing some basic aerobatic maneuvers, flying inverted, etc.

This thread is for discussing the skill level that defines and separates a parkflyer intermediate pilot from that of a parkflyer newbie. You may say, Who cares? Well, for one thing HobbyZone sells its planes for Z1 beginner through Z3 intermediate. Are both still newbies?

Let's first see if there is a parkflyer consensus on a turning point skill level definition/description when a newbie is no longer a 'beginner' having paid their dues and earned their 'intermediate' wings.



Leo L -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part One (3/14/2008 6:10:36 PM)

Hi Swift,

Interesting series of questions.

When talking about skill levels, its important to remember that its not the plane that determines the skill level, but rather the skill level that determines the plane that can be flown. I've seen some beginners manage to fly, and land in one piece, a Typhoon. The fact that the person was able to fly an expert level plane does not make the flyer an expert flyer. If an expert flyer decides to fly a Z1 Level plane, it does not convert him to a beginner. The definitions that I use are as follows:
- Beginner: someone who must think about, and plan, almost every move.
- Intermediate: someone who will react correctly, before thinking, when things go wrong under normal flying circumstances, but must think about and plan their moves when attempting to execute advanced maneuvers.
- Expert: someone who will react correctly, before thinking, when things go wrong in almost all situations, including advanced maneuvers.

The number of channels that a particular plane has, or whether or not it has ailerons, has nothing to do with wether the person flying it is a beginner, intermediate or expert flyer. There are a number of 4-channel planes that are much easier to fly than some 3-channel planes. The ease of flying really has to do with stability, responsiveness, maximum speed and stall speed of the plane. For example, my 4-channel MiniFuntanaX is much easier to fly than my 3-channel Corsair.



aeajr -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part One (3/15/2008 10:01:01 PM)

Well said Leo.



Swift427 -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part One (3/16/2008 10:18:53 PM)


quote:

The ease of flying really has to do with stability, responsiveness, maximum speed and stall speed of the plane. For example, my 4-channel MiniFuntanaX is much easier to fly than my 3-channel Corsair.

Excellent description of purpose of thread that needs further discussion.

It would be helpful to explain to a newbie/beginner why your MiniFuntanaX is easier to fly than your Corsair. Perhaps show picture of these planes and/or others so newbie beginners understand/grasp concept of beginner plane as opposed to intermediate. For example a newbie with money to burn may wonder why they can't learn with a Mini Showtime just as well or even better than with a Minimag.

All three of these discussions are with respect to self-instructed teenage parkflyers as opposed to learning from an experienced club instructor and buddy box.



Leo L -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part One (3/17/2008 6:38:48 PM)

Hi Swift,

I have found that most beginners are first attracted to the hobby when they see, either at the flying field or at their local hobby shop, an exciting looking plane, usually a warbird or jet. Most of the people then get upset or disappointed when they are told by other flyers or the hobby shop owners that they cannot fly the plane of their dreams yet, but must first learn to fly with an "ugly" beginner plane. Some ignore the advice and try flying their dream plane, only to have it destroyed in a matter of seconds. Others refuse to downgrade and don;t take up the hobby at all. Yet others listen to the advice that they are given, proceed through a series of trainer planes and finally fly the planes of their dreams.

Flying is unique in the world of R/C because unlike cars or boats, everything happens in 3D. Beginners don't know how to react, so they must think before making every move. This thinking requires time. With a car or a boat, if you are getting into trouble, you can stop and figure out what to do. With a plane, if you try stopping it to give you time, your plane will have an unfortunate reaquaintance with the ground. Also, the more variables there are, the more decissions need to be made, each one requiring some time. Therefore, the best beginner planes tend to be the ones that fly slowly and minimize the number of variables. The best planes for beginners are planes that self correct: if you let go of the controls and shut the motor off, the plane will level out, straighten out and go into a gentle glide and land on its own if need be.

My favorite story has to do with a beginner who came last summer to the park where I fly. He had no previous experience in flying and bought the HobbyZone SuperCub to start with. He spoke almost no English (he was Korean I believe), so it was basically impossible for anyone to give him any pointers. He took off from the ground and almost immediately went into a too-sharp climb, causing the plane to stall. The plane went into a dive, but picked up enough speed to recover. He then climbed/stalled again. He got into the typical "porpoising" and at the same time was steering the plane all over the place. Eventually he panicked, shut off the motor and let go of the control stick, figuring that he could at least keep the plane from flying away and maybe minimize the damage when it crashes. The plane leveled out and went into a gentle descend. It made a picture perfect landing, all on its own, about 75 ft. from him. That's why the SuperCub is considered by many to be the ultimate beginner plane.



aeajr -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part One (3/17/2008 9:26:18 PM)

Great story about the Super Cub Leo. I have seen similar events myself with that and some of the other planes we typically recommend for self trainers.



Swift427 -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part One (3/18/2008 1:20:56 AM)

Yes, Great Stories! Keep them coming. Kind of like sitting around a campfire listening to a great storyteller.

As a newbie beginner I still need some more clarification to my previous question. Once I get the connection it will all make sense, but for right now I'm still flying in some occasional fog.

quote:

It would be helpful to explain to a newbie/beginner why your MiniFuntanaX is easier to fly than your Corsair. Perhaps include a couple links showing a picture of each of these planes so newbie beginners better understand your explanation.



Leo L -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part One (3/18/2008 5:49:34 PM)

Hi Swift,

Generally speaking, the best beginner planes are the planes that can fly slowly, giving the beginner flyer more time to figure out what to do, and that self-correct, assisting the beginner flyer if things start going wrong. High wing planes tend to be the most stable, because the center of gravity of the plane is below the wing, allowing gravity to help the plane keep a level flight characteristic. Mid-wings are in-between, and low wings tend to be the least stable, with gravity trying to roll the plane over. Most warbirds are low wing planes, and therefore tend to be very difficult to fly. However, there are always exceptions to the rules. One of the best beginner planes is the Multiplex EasyStar, which is a mid-wing plane. One of the best aileron trainers is the PZ T-28 Trojan, which is a low wing plane. Go figure!

Landings are always a challenge, and the easiest planes to land are ones that can be put into a gentle glide and slowed down without stalling. The Firebird Freedom is an example of a plane that is advertised to be great for beginners, but really is very poor for beginners because it has a very nasty tip stall characteristic. It must be flown, and landed, at a good speed. If it is slowed down to its stall speed, it suddenly and very dramatically drops a wing. If this happens during a landing, the plane's wing hits the ground and the plane cartwheels.



Glacier Girl -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part One (4/4/2008 9:14:46 PM)

Leo, very impressive, great job explaining it. [:D]

Maybe something to add. I would look at a beginner as one who reacts to what an airplane does, tends to fall behind on control inputs and often gets themself into trouble by over correcting.

An intermediate would be more, so to say, in tune with what's happening with the plane, know what he/she want's it to do, but not having a lot of practice, may tend to be a little on the over control and have to counter the over control. Flies, can take off and land, but maybe a little erratic in the air.

An expert, easiest way to put it is he/she is flying ahead of the airplane. Knows what's going to happen exactly and is already making the start of the next input as the plane is completing the last input. Total control, even when the unexpected, or as I like to call it Mr. Murphy shows up.

So it would be like this.

Beginner: AFTER: Reacts after the plane has done something.

Intermediate: DURING: Reacts as the plane starts doing something.

Expert: BEFORE: Acts before the plane does something.



Swift427 -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part One (4/9/2008 7:34:28 PM)

Thanks for your insightful replies.

One intent of this thread is the fine line definition of what is a beginner, intermediate, advanced and elite pilot as defined by very experienced AMA club guys as compared to advanced/elite experienced electric parkflyers. I guess as parkflyers some might say, "Who Cares!", but if there is a difference between how HobbyZone defines an intermediate Z3 pilot and how very experienced AMA club members would define an intermediate pilot it would be insightful for some of us to know.

With that in mind would senior AMA members with trophies, etc. consider a parkflyer that has only flown 3-channel electric planes to even be an intermediate pilot no matter how good his flying skill. Another way of phrasing this would be-- Do parkflyers / HobbyZone have a different idea of what constitutes an intermediate pilot than does an advanced club pilot with 20 years of gas/glow experience that has only flown expensive 4-channel electrics in this 21st Century.



aeajr -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part One (4/9/2008 9:19:58 PM)

At our club you are a novice or a senior pilot. Those are the only two designations.

We have a flight test for you to go from one to the other.

You can move from novice to senior pilot on a 3 channel parkflyer or a 2 channel glider. Of course you can use more complex planes if you like.

Basic requrements are around the ability to launch/take-off, maintain positive control of the plane in the air, and to land under control and in the designated area. There is no tie to what the control surfaces are on the plane. R/E/T, A/E/T planes or , R/E or A/E gliders would all be treated equally as long as the pilot shows command of the plane in all the required manauvers. And again, they plane can be more complex as well. Whatever the pilot wants to fly is up to them.



Swift427 -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part One (4/9/2008 10:08:59 PM)

quote:

At our club you are a novice or a senior pilot. Those are the only two designations.

Is this a common practice. I'm guessing it's more socially correct and encourages novices to get their act together ASAP so they can consider themselves a 'senior' pilot.

I would imagine their are senior pilots that in actuality know enough to be dangerous and then there are seasoned SENIOR pilots.

But I like your idea as it doesn't make a BIG deal out of this when the primary objective is having fun and sharing the experience with others.

Do some clubs make it a BIGGER deal than necessary or is their objective/reason just as valid???



aeajr -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part One (4/9/2008 10:59:18 PM)

Many clubs also have flight examiners and instructors. I hold both those titles, but they are more service positions than pilot rankings.

I have never heard of a club that has tiered ranking for pilots. You are either a novice/student, or you are a pilot/sr pilot, depending on what they call you.

Turbines require a special certification under AMA rules.



Swift427 -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part One (4/10/2008 7:20:17 PM)

Thanks for your insightful replies and definition of an intermediate pilot as distinquished from a beginner and an expert.

quote:

Leo L,

- Beginner: someone who must think about, and plan, almost every move.
- Intermediate: someone who will react correctly, before thinking, when things go wrong under normal flying circumstances, but must think about and plan their moves when attempting to execute advanced maneuvers.
- Expert: someone who will react correctly, before thinking, when things go wrong in almost all situations, including advanced maneuvers.


quote:

Glacier Girl,

- Beginner: AFTER: Reacts after the plane has done something.
- Intermediate: DURING: Reacts as the plane starts doing something.
- Expert: BEFORE: Acts before the plane does something.

An intermediate would be more, so to say, in tune with what's happening with the plane, know what he/she want's it to do, but not having a lot of practice, may tend to be a little on the over control and have to counter the over control. Flies, can take off and land, but maybe a little erratic in the air.


Aeajr's club perspective is with respect to club pilots and not planes. If I understand aeajr a club member might still fly beginner planes that they have/are mastering such as a Multiplex Easy* or SuperCub. When they have mastered an intermediate plane the pilot wouldn't be considered an intermediate pilot. In other words there may be a ranking of Junior Pilot for those flying beginner to intermediate planes and another ranking for Senior Pilots. We can see how this fineline/gray area could become rather sticky.

Better to view it like some societies that welcome/initiate a boy into manhood when he turns 12 years old. It's not that he's a senior man, but he's now beginning his journey into manhood. That is what is great about joining a Flying Club. You are surrounded by Senior Pilots that can save you alot of time from just spinning your wheels and spending your money on the wrong plane(s).

quote:

aeajr,

I have never heard of a club that has tiered ranking for pilots. You are either a novice/student, or you are a pilot/sr pilot, depending on what they call you.



Glacier Girl -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part One (4/12/2008 3:37:35 AM)

Oh well just to play Devil's advocate. Think about this. You could be an expert on something like a Slow Stick or a turbine powered jet. Both are experts in their own class but I seriously doubt one could fly the other's bird as well.

I feel that an expert is going to be comfortable with just about anything he/she flies. Even if it's a maiden flight. Just like anything the more "hours" you have under your belt, the better you will be in something.

I see an expert in something as one who has his/her craft down to second nature. The bird reacts to him/her, not the other way around.



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