Rudder to Aileron Control - Part Two (Full Version)

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Swift427 -> Rudder to Aileron Control - Part Two (3/13/2008 7:44:00 PM)

Second is there a better 3Channel aileron aircraft design for use as a 3C beginning aileron trainer than the 3C planes currently on the market. In particular two of the most popular 3C aileron planes found in most every hobby store--HZ Aerobird Swift and PZ Stryker.

It's the opinion of at least one experienced parkflyer that the Stryker is a newbie plane--"Not because it's necessarily the easiest plane to learn to fly (in some ways it is and in some not), but because it's durable, simple, and will glue back together numerous times while you earn your wings."

This thread is for discussing the merits of a formed delta wing, flat wing, dihedral glider wing, wing camber, etc. as most suitable in terms of expense-to-useful purpose as a parkflyer advances from 3-channel beginner rudder control to a 3-channel trainer aileron control, then 4-channel having at some point earned their 'intermediate' wings.





Leo L -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part Two (3/14/2008 6:27:24 PM)

Hi Swift,

Anyone who claims the Stryker to be a good beginner plane is not being objective to the needs of a beginner flyer. The Stryker is a very fast plane that is also unstable and can easily lead to disorientation. These characteristics make it a terrible plane to start with. However, its a terrific intermediate plane.

Although the Aerobird Swift is advertised as a good plane for learning aileron control, its primary benefits are for those who learned to fly on a 2-channel or 3-channel pod-and-boom plane, like the Firebird Commander, Aerobird Challenger, Aerobird 3, Firebird Freedom, T-hawk, etc. Two planes that are much better aileron trainers are the 4-channel Multiplex MiniMagistar (Minimag) and the 4-channel PZ T-28 Trojan. What's important is not the number of channels, but the stability of the plane and its ability to fly, and land, at a slow speed. The best planes for this purpose are planes that have a high wing, allowing gravity to help stabilize the plane when the flyer gets it into trouble. When at a distance, the high wing planes are easily discerned as to their orientation.

Flying wings are just the opposite. By their very design they fly inverted almost as well as they fly right-side-up, and at any sort of distance are very difficult to distinguish as to their orientation. They are a lot of fun to fly, they handle wind very well and are great planes, but not for someone that is learning to fly.




aeajr -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part Two (3/15/2008 10:02:05 PM)

I agree with Leo. While you can find pilots who started on wings and delta, on the average they are not my first choice for a first plane.




Swift427 -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part Two (3/17/2008 3:24:28 AM)

These three threads are with respect to a teenager with two to three years experience as described. This teenager has just enough experience to have developed some specific interests. Yes, it would be nice if beginners had opportunity and access to learn from an experienced instructor and a paved, dirt, or grass field for gaining rog takeoff and landing experience. If every teenagers flying interest/passion was to become an Alaskan bush pilot, Cessna instructor, etc. then the 3-channel SuperCub or 4-channel Minimag would seem to be two of the top contenders hands down. But is that realistic for the majority of parkflyers?

Please respond to the scenario that most relates to your own interests/passion.

Scenario One:
Grandpa, a former Navy jet pilot, former SanDiego TopGun instructor, AMA member, and local club instructor has offered to buy his teenage grandson a Hobby-Lobby "Trainer 172" entire outfit as shown on page 9 for $389. The grandson wants grandpa to buy him the less expensive "Shockflyer Jet" as shown on page 10 for $249. Grandpa is now finds himself caught between a rock and a hard place. His flying buddies are expecting him to persuade his grandson to switch gears from page 10 to page 9. His daughter-in-law is expecting grandpa to appease her son's interest. Is there another option/choice that would resolve this dilemma and make everyone a happy camper. Don't want to discourage this teenagers interest in flying nor his perception of grandpa turning out to be a kill joy. What advise would you give to them both?

Scenario Two:
Another teenager's interest/passion is gliders, non-motorized slope soaring and dreaming about someday owning a $1,000 custom manufactured state-of-the-art hotliner. Grandpas, interests are more along the lines of a Spitfire Mk IIB or a brushless T-28 Trojan. Grandpa feels it his duty to get his grandson's head screwed on straight to being a real man. This teenager is a dreamer who is fascinated with birds and thermal seeking. He would prefer his grandpa buy him a Hobbico Upstar or a Fly Hobby Fly "Free Bird" mini hotliner. He wants to tell his grandpa about a sailplane expo this summer including Bubble Dancer demo flights, but is afraid his grandpa will belittle him. Ironically, this teenager is also fascinated with the likes of a Yuri Higuchi's passion for 3D extreme perfection, but his immediate interest is gliders and sailplanes. There isn't anything this 70 year old Rambo can't do whether sky diving, rock climbing, restoring a 55 Chevy, or building and flying his favorite gas powered toy a 74" Yak 54. What advise would you give this teenager as gramps uses money to control others to get his own way.

Scenario Three:
Another teenager's interest/passion is mastering elusive combat flying with flat wing SPADs. His interest is the thrill of the chase/escape and believes a 3-channel delta wing evelon foamie--a scaled down Stryker around 15-17oz, 24-30" wng span, brushless, with a good slope glide would be a suitable trainer for his specific flying interest. Both dad and son recently visited the local hobby store where they were steered toward the Aerobird 3. The dad wanted to buy it on the spot, but the son wanted no part of it so they left without a plane and are not talking to each other. The dad does house remodeling and has about every tool you can imagine in his home workshop. Business is slow so they both have time for a father/son build project. Is there a better option than the Aerobird 3 with its xport and combat module for this teenager's need for social camaraderie and thrill seeking adrenaline rush? What advise would you give to both of them. Dad hopes his son will someday manage the family business and needs to break the ice between them.

Scenario Four: LisaAnn is a beautiful 15 year old tomboy that thinks dad is about the greatest guy that walks planet earth. Lisa's hand-eye reflexes are very good. Dad calls her Annie after she outshot him on their latest South Dakota pheasant hunt. Lisa(Annie Oakley) has been flying little planes since she was 10 years old. She likes an older boy in her school who does some pylon racing with his electric powered plane. But this 17 year old is oblivious to attempts by this rough cut diamond with braces on her teeth to strike up a conversation. Neither Lisa's dad or mom know anything about brushless motors, lipo batteries or racing model airplanes. The local hobby store suggested she buy the Multiplex Space Scooter. Lisa being shy was reluctant to tell the salesman she can already fly her Green RC Models Tiny Tiger Moth better than other parkflyers with more experience. What would be a good 3-channel aileron plane for Lisa that may get the attention of this older boy when she shows up at the flying field with her speedy racer. Her dad says he'll buy whatever she wants and will help her put it together.




Scar -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part Two (3/17/2008 1:43:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Swift427
<<snip>>
Please respond to the scenario that most relates to your own interests/passion.
Scenario One:<<snip>>
Scenario Two:<<snip>>
Scenario Three:<<snip>>

This is the "Electric Training" Forum, your topic is "Rudder to Aileron Control", but you are doing research for a thesis in behavioral science.

My response is only related to the scenarios by being in this thread.
a. I suggest you put your research in the Clubhouse forum, and reserve this forum for Electric Training help.
b. Give the kids in any of the Scenarios an opportunity to try your trainer (on the student/instructor transmitter setup), like half the instructors at 'most any given club will do. The kid will take it from there, or...
c. The kid (if the kid is an independent RC type) will get a paper route, earn some money, buy his own choice of plane, and either get instruction or crash & rebuild on his own. None of which requires Grandpa or Dad to finance.
d. It is also possible the kid will ignore any indoctination-into-RC efforts, fall in with drug abusers, and wind up in jail. But that's not related to Electric Training, either.

Did I pass the test?
Dave Olson




Leo L -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part Two (3/17/2008 6:05:30 PM)

Hi Swift,

You describe some interesting situations, but the solutions have more to do with relationships (Can we get Dr. Phil involved here?) than they do with the hobby of R/C flying. Here is my input:

Scenario 1: I don't have the HobbyLobby catalog, and their site does not list a "Trainer 172". I was, however, able to see the Shockflyer Jet. The Shockflyer Jet is not really conducive to flying at a club field, but it is a terrific plane for flying at the local park (as per parkflyer). A beginner flyer showed up with the Shockflyer Jet at my park last summer. He had very little prior flying experience. To the amazement of all of the "experienced" flyers, he did extremely well with it. Within a few weeks he was doing the most incredible maneuvers. Grandpa should thank his friends for their opinions and suggestions, then get his grandson the plane that the kid really wants. Grandpa should then find a good local park where he and his grandson can spend quality time enjoying the Shockflyer. The money that he saves can be used to buy replacement parts, if any are needed.

Scenario 2: If grandpa forces the issue his way, he will most likely lose the teenager's interest in the hobby. Teenagers are fickle, and have relatively short attention spans. If the teenager is interested in gliders/slope soarers, that's what grandpa should be encouraging. The beauty of this hobby is that there are so many different options, that almost everyone can find their particular niche. If the grandpa is as manipulative as you indicate, the teenager may need to suggest a "compromise". Let grandpa buy two planes for the same transmitter: one a powered warbird like the Trojan, the other a sail plane or glider. The teenager would be willing to try Granpa's selection, as long as he gets equal time, and support from Grandpa, to fly his preference of glider/sail plane.

Scenario 3: Delta wing foamies are not that difficult to fly, or repair, but can very easily lead to disorientation. As a compromise, dad should encourage his son's interest in the combat flying, but for safety should insist that the plane be painted two completely different colors, so that the top of the plane can easily be differentiated from the bottom. I've seen Strykers painted this way and I painted my Typhoon this way so that the orientation of the plane can easily be identified from almost any angle and location.




Swift427 -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part Two (3/18/2008 1:07:55 AM)

Thanks Leo

The Cessna 172 mentioned in Scenario One is VERY NICE as you can see-- http://www.hobby-lobby.com/cessna172.htm
Grandpas flying buddies were counting on him to persuade his grandson to get this plane so they can try it out. It’s on their short list as the next club’s purchase for an electric trainer.

Actually, gramps is more excited about this Shockflyer jet along with all the stories just waiting to be told as a Vietnam Navy Ace and retired TopGun instructor. He's decided to surprise the guys by buying the Cessna 172 ARF for a club build project.

What's your 3-channel plane recommendation for Lisa in the Scenario 4 addition.




Swift427 -> RE: Rudder to Aileron Control - Part Two (4/9/2008 6:40:20 PM)

quote:

The Shockflyer Jet is not really conducive to flying at a club field, but it is a terrific plane for flying at the local park (as per parkflyer). A beginner flyer showed up with the Shockflyer Jet at my park last summer. He had very little prior flying experience. To the amazement of all of the "experienced" flyers, he did extremely well with it. Within a few weeks he was doing the most incredible maneuvers. Grandpa should thank his friends for their opinions and suggestions, then get his grandson the plane that the kid really wants. Grandpa should then find a good local park where he and his grandson can spend quality time enjoying the Shockflyer. The money that he saves can be used to buy replacement parts, if any are needed.


The Shockflyer looked better in the catalog than in real life; especially after several flights. Now the grandson wants something with more body, but still considered a beginner aileron trainer that resembles a jet. Grandpa and his club flying buddies are still counting on junior earning his flying wings on the club's new brushless Cessna 172 build project. Thanks to Mom, Jr. is about ready to admit that when these old Cronies share their seasoned words he may be better off takng their advice to heart. However, Jr. now has his sights set on a Multiplex Fun Jet.

This reviewer of the Fun Jet begins with--
"Whenever I'm asked by a new RC pilot what planes I recommend, a Multiplex plane is always one of them. Simply put, they are all great flyers, and since they're made of Multiplex's exclusive foam material called Elapor, they are very tough and easy to repair! Needless to say I was very excited to get the opportunity to review their newest pusher design, the FunJet!

This site - http://www.modelspot.com/mpx/funjet.htm - says the Fun Jet is 'Flying Skill Level 2.' Does that mean it's comparable to Aerobird 3 and easier to fly than the Z3 Aerobird Swift? Which of these two 3-channel planes - Fun Jet(evelons) / Swift(aileron/elevator) - do you believe is easier to 'Master' ?

By MASTER would you say they should be able to takeoff, maneuver and land it:

(1) At least three times more often than they crash it (needs minor repair).
(2) Ten times more often than they let it get out of control (needs minor repair).
(3) Needs repairs only from unexpected events, which the pilot was not responsible.

Mastering a plane can have various meanings to different parkflyers and club flyers.
What does it mean to a qualified senior pilot who instructs novices and beginners.





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