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Nitro additive for Gasoline brew?? - 3/19/2008 1:34:12 AM   
JoeVen



Posts: 57
Joined: 12/15/2005
From: Cumana Sucre, VENEZUELA
Status: offline 		Mistakely I posted my question in the "gas engines" thread http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7236418/tm.htm.
What I whant to know is this product "PowerOne Nitro Fuel Treatment" from a manufacturer named Power One USA originaly desinged for full scale racing cars would be worth for our 50 cc gassers?.
Have any tried it?

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RE: Nitro additive for Gasoline brew?? - 3/19/2008 10:52:59 AM   
balsaeater


 

Posts: 128
Joined: 5/20/2005
From: p, ANDORRA
Status: offline 		I assume the product above is 100% nitromethane
The site says N2O nitros oxide but that as far as I know cannot be done in liquid form (Its only done as far as I know with compressed gas bottle solutions ) and poured into tanks like liquid nitromethane can be done

(you need to contact them at info@poweroneusa.com to verify what the product is as if they will really tell you )

so if it is nitro methane this could can mean

BANG
if you get the mix order and ratio amount wrong

VERY CAREFULLY
Nitromethane can be mixed into Gasoline up to certian amount

but mixing gasolile into Nitro methane can make a shock sensitive fuel that can go BANG

Gasoline and hydrocarbon fuels generally have more power than TNT so if they go bang its bad real bad as in 911 as a example of 60 tons of fuel

I forget the rule exactly but I think when the nitro content in gasoline exceeds 30% it becomes shock sensitive
Therefore if you poured gasoline into a 100% nitromethane mix the ratio would start at 99% nitro methane and 1% gasoline and would be at risk of exploding until the levels of the nitro dropped below 30%



adding nitro will add more oxygen to burn and add extra nitrogen which will increase compression ratio and as a result power

Adding nitromethane would improve gasser and methanol mixes HP performance considerably but would increase fuel costs substantially

typical example 20% nitro would could easily increase fuel costs 4 fold at WOT

It might also help reduce roughness vibration from the gasoline fuel
It should supply extra torque (grunt) at low end

Other negative affects could outweigh benefits such as possible need to up the lubrication oil and inability of types of some rubber tubing diafram components etc to Nitromethane

Assuming the rubber components in system can cope the same benifits in HP could probably be more easily gained with adding some E85 or methanol both oxygenated fuels and or converting over to glow fuel and doing 90% methanol and 10% synthetic lubrication for motors like MVVS and suitable ratios for other makes of motors

Tuned pipes can also equal the same output in power as nitro additives

Skimming head and increasing compression ratio can also help especially a higher methanol content such as 85% gasoline 12% methanol and 3% lubrication as the Methanol will reduced the knock issues

Lots of extra info on converting gasser to glow thread
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1267448/tm.htm

(80 pages have fun)

If you could state make of motor type of prop and what performance RPM or size of prop is required that would be more useful to state which options are best eg add nitro or add methanol etc

Venezuela may have problems to obtain nitromethane but in nearby Colombia they seem to be able to get nitro Ethane (very similar to nitromethane ) at very much lower prices

Balsaeater

< Message edited by balsaeater -- 3/19/2008 1:34:47 PM >

(in reply to JoeVen)
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RE: Nitro additive for Gasoline brew?? - 3/19/2008 8:18:24 PM   
JoeVen



Posts: 57
Joined: 12/15/2005
From: Cumana Sucre, VENEZUELA
Status: offline 		shock sensitive It doesn´t sound good at all!
An advertisment of a local dealer recommend one portion for every 14 US gallons to improve valves and timming of the car. For racing or power purpose the proportion is one tube for for every 5 US gallons.
I don´t know the product content but assuming 500 cc the last mix should be around a 3% of nitro... quite far from the 30% risky limit...
I can find it aroud US$ 17 what makes it an affordable component compared to the high quality synthetic oil needed wich is aroud US$ 30 the one pint bottle.
I´ll drop a line to the manufacturer and I´ll let you know.

Thanks Balsaeater for your response

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RE: Nitro additive for Gasoline brew?? - 3/20/2008 4:34:14 PM   
Jezmo



Posts: 657
Joined: 6/26/2006
From: Spring, TX, USA
Status: offline 		There is a significant difference between Nitromethane (the one we mix with our fuel) and Nitroglycerin (the one that goes boom) which is VERY shock sensitive. I run glow fuel with nitro percentages as high as 65 percent in my race planes and take NO special precautions other than the same ones used when working with any other highly flammable fuel. Most engines do not run well with more than 30% nitro because of compression ratio issues. It takes special setups to run high nitro fuels without damaging the engine.

For the average user you should stick with 5 to 15% fuels as purchased from the LHS.

< Message edited by Jezmo -- 3/20/2008 10:24:53 PM >

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RE: Nitro additive for Gasoline brew?? - 3/20/2008 7:43:30 PM   
balsaeater


 

Posts: 128
Joined: 5/20/2005
From: p, ANDORRA
Status: offline


I think there is a crossed wire issue for this question

The question as I understand it is to put nitromethane into GASOLINE (petrol benzine ) which according to this thread

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1267448/tm.htm

some experts claim a shock sensitivity issue when doing a Gasoline nitromethane mix

Standard glow fuel with methanol and any amount of nitro methane from 1% to 99% remains non shock sensitive even with the additions of lubrication oils

In the thread
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1267448/tm.htm
the fuel mixes tried and used include combinations of E85 and glow fuel and Gasoline and there existed a risk that home brew mixers might accidentally start with mixing gasoline into nitromethane en route to including the other ingredients and could accidentally place themselfs into a shock sensitive fuel situation before the other ingredients were added
I have to assume untell proved otherwise that this risk might exist

As I also wished to do rocketry motors with fuels like gasoline and nitromethane mixes the internet has proved useful in ensuring that the risk of accidentally making shock sensitive fuels is reduced


Although the risks of making a shock senitive fuel are low the desire for modelers to gain improvements in power cost ratios result in experimentation some very useful and most of no interest or only of local interest where some ingredients are lowwer quality or lacking in some factor like unavailable

99.9% of gasser or gasoline motor users will be perfectly content to use the standard non leaded gasoline 95% gasoline 5% ethanol with a 3% synthetic oil

This new product http://www.poweroneusa.com/
and the myriads of similar go faster fuel additives that exist on the open market are experiments waiting to happen and with the internet the chances to locate somebody who has already made or done this experiment exist and therefore verify if its interesting to do

I suspect this product hiding behind go faster wording like nitreos oxide and synthetic is for our typical two stroke gasoline motors a nearly complete waste of money but might be interesting for four stork gasoline motors and probably a nearly a total waste of money for glow motors both two and four stroke as it probably is nothing more than a 400cc of nitromethane and 100cc of synthetic oil

But that speculation untell more facts are known

What is important to other potential wanna be gasoline (petrol benzine )motor experimenters wishing to just add nitro methane to gasoline they should all be aware there might exist a risk however small or large that they should know all the facts

99.9% of modelers glow or gasoline will mostly buy safe and tested fuel combinations from sources like LHS or mix well known formulations that all have no shock sensitivity issues of any type

Balsaeater

< Message edited by balsaeater -- 3/20/2008 11:01:26 PM >

(in reply to Jezmo)
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RE: Nitro additive for Gasoline brew?? - 3/20/2008 9:20:09 PM   
XJet


 

Posts: 3006
Joined: 3/31/2003
From: Tokoroa, NEW ZEALAND
Status: online 		Nitromethane *can* become shock sensitive and used to (may still have?) a dye in it that would turn blue if it had become sensitized in this way.

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RE: Nitro additive for Gasoline brew?? - 3/20/2008 10:24:19 PM   
Jezmo



Posts: 657
Joined: 6/26/2006
From: Spring, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Yes, X is correct in that it can become shock sensitive and my understanding is the dye turns blue or green if it has done so. Thanks for reminding me X, but it's not shock sensitive because it's mixed with methanol in any particular quantity such as over 30%. It gets shock sensitive when it absorbs to much sunlight and instead of burning it can explode. Nitromethane is, like many other fuels, dangerous and if you are not familiar with handling these types of chemicals you should not use them. I strongly urge anyone who does not know what they are doing to leave the fuel mixing to include nitro to the experts.

balsaeater, I corrected my original post because under certain conditions it CAN be sensitive and I don't want to mislead anyone. Thanks for getting me to rethink my earlier post. (Crossed wire issue here)

< Message edited by Jezmo -- 3/20/2008 10:29:13 PM >

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RE: Nitro additive for Gasoline brew?? - 3/20/2008 11:18:30 PM   
balsaeater


 

Posts: 128
Joined: 5/20/2005
From: p, ANDORRA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: XJet

Nitromethane *can* become shock sensitive and used to (may still have?) a dye in it that would turn blue if it had become sensitized in this way.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jezmo
Yes, X is correct in that it can become shock sensitive and my understanding is the dye turns blue or green if it has done so. Thanks for reminding me X, but it's not shock sensitive because it's mixed with methanol in any particular quantity such as over 30%. It gets shock sensitive when it absorbs to much sunlight and instead of burning it can explode. Nitromethane is, like many other fuels, dangerous and if you are not familiar with handling these types of chemicals you should not use them. I strongly urge anyone who does not know what they are doing to leave the fuel mixing to include nitro to the experts.

balsaeater, I corrected my original post because under certain conditions it CAN be sensitive and I don't want to mislead anyone. Thanks for getting me to rethink my earlier post. (Crossed wire issue here)


Thanks thats new information I didn't know some of these finer points as I just mixed my nitro into methanol on the same day as the purchase

I wasn't aware there could be a long term storage issue for pure nitromethane and the need to protect it from sunlight

I presume that once nitromethane is mixed into typical methanol oil mix at 5 to 10% nitro the fuel can never become shock sensitive
no matter what the sun light exposure time is or any other factors

This would also explain why this go faster car product http://www.poweroneusa.com/
for gasoline is sold with a mix of oil lubricant so as to ensure the nitromethane product wont become shock sensitive over time from long exposure times to sunlight if the user were to remove it and store in a different translucent plastic cannister
( and this strongly suggests for me that the oil is serving no real purpose and is just along for the ride)

Balasaeater



< Message edited by balsaeater -- 3/20/2008 11:54:30 PM >

(in reply to XJet)
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RE: Nitro additive for Gasoline brew?? - 3/21/2008 3:51:16 AM   
Jezmo



Posts: 657
Joined: 6/26/2006
From: Spring, TX, USA
Status: offline 		There is some strange information with that company. Balsaeater, you are correct about N2O being gaseous unless highly compressed. Below is information copied from an automotive nitrous oxide system site.

{offline quote}
"The nitrous tank is used to store Nitrous Oxide in a liquid form. The tank is actually a pressurized canister as Nitrous Oxide must be compressed to remain liquid at room temperature. Remember N2O reaches boiling point (i.e., it becomes gaseous) at -127° F and more Nitrous Oxide can be stored when it is in a liquid form. Approximately 850 psi of pressure is required to keep Nitrous Oxide liquid at room temperature and at sea level but the nitrous tank must be pressure tested and certified to withstand 1,800 psi. If the certification on your NOS tank is older than five years, your nitrous dealer will not refill it and you will have to have the tank pressure tested and recertified. The tank is mounted in the car's trunk and has a siphon tube that is connected to the release valve and extends to the bottom of the tank. The tank must be mounted at a 15° angle to ensure that the maximum amount of Nitrous Oxide can be released from the tank"{end quote}

I doubt it contains Nitromethane either because they specifically talk about the characteristics of nitrous oxide and how it releases oxygen in the heat of combustion. Unless they can explain how nitrous can be kept in a liquid form at room temps and at atmospheric pressures I'd be very doubtful as to the effectiveness of this product.

Just my two cents guys.

< Message edited by Jezmo -- 3/21/2008 3:53:26 AM >

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RE: Nitro additive for Gasoline brew?? - 3/23/2008 3:43:13 PM   
Sport_Pilot



Posts: 7274
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Acworth, GA, USA
Status: offline 		You could buy nitromethane and mix to your gas, but why bother. Methanol is much cheaper and you can mix that instead, for the price you can mix much more methanol to gas and have more power for less. And without the possible detonation problems. If you did want to add nitro it would mix better and run better with a gas, methanol, nitro mix.

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RE: Nitro additive for Gasoline brew?? - 3/23/2008 3:48:23 PM   
Sport_Pilot



Posts: 7274
Joined: 1/21/2002
From: Acworth, GA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

I presume that once nitromethane is mixed into typical methanol oil mix at 5 to 10% nitro the fuel can never become shock sensitive
no matter what the sun light exposure time is or any other factors


I believe that is correct. It is one of the reasons the NHRA banned 100% nitro in drag races. I believe the max amount is now 85% nitromentane and the rest methanol and sometimes a small amout of acetone.

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