Allround Glow Fuel? (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Glow Engines, Gas Engines, Fuel & Mfg Support Forums] >> RC Fuels



Message

SABREPD -> Allround Glow Fuel? (3/23/2008 8:55:28 PM)

Hi all,
Is there an allround glow fuel? The reason being, is, i`m new to the I.C. world and I hear of so many makes with different ingredients in them. Also can you use the same fuel for 2-strokes and 4-strokes?

Many thanks Nige.



Marcol -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/24/2008 10:37:38 PM)

Nige ,
The answers you'll get from the guys in the States won't be a great deal of help to you, as whatever they recommend you probably won't be able to get in the UK anyway, although I have seen Coolpower here.

Most fuels in the States contain some castor oil. The main reason for this is that the synthetic oils in the States aren't as good as we have here in Europe. So some castor oil is added as a safety margin.

However as you are here in the UK you'll be able to buy this fuel. Weston UK Prosynth 2000. This is an all synthetic oil fuel and is THE best fuel available. Suitable for 2 or 4 strokes and recommended by Weston, Laser and RCV.

It's available direct or from Inwoods etc. It's not the cheapest ,but the best never is. I have been using this fuel for many years now and would not use anything else.


See http://www.westonuk.co.uk/index_030.htm

Hope this helps

Colin




balsaeater -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/25/2008 11:17:19 AM)

As above pointed out There is a large difference betweeen fuels in the European situation and USA and even between GB and mainland Europe

Most LHS supply the fuels ready made and in small engines 4cc 8cc 10cc etc the fuel costs are too low for most of use to look at making our own home brew versions

HAZMAT (hazard materials ) shipping penalty costs make the buying of fuel online often a very expensive purchase typicaly doubles the cost per gallon on small amounts and is really only some thing you do if you have no choice and live on some obscure island off Scotland's shoreline or you buy a 55 barrel of materials at a time

In mainland Europe the trend is to supply only synthetic lubrication no Castor oil except for FAI competition

As Castor is a lot cheaper the trend in UK still seems to be to keep Castor fuel oil mixes or mixes with some synthetic and some Castor
best I can tell from my occasional expeditions to the UK to keep the Castor sniffing bunch happy with old time memory revivals brought on with burning Castor oil

The use of high nitro is not so expensive for the USA where it costs vary from 15$ a USA gallon in bulk 55 USA gallon barrel to typically
$80 USA gallon in the LHS or similar

However nitromethane in most of Europe is a lot more expensive often double the USA costs and sometimes even 5 to 10 times the USA costs so buying engines which run best with high nitro demands as typically found in the USA tends to be avoided buy the older hands who will tend to prefer to get the European version made version of the same engine which operates with lowwer nitro or get the European makes of Engine that perform well with no nitro or low nitro make like MVVS Super tiger Moki etc

Yes why does Methanol a simple fuel made from natural gas production costs $0.80 per USA gallon ~£0.50pper UK gallon when bought in bulk 10000 ton barge cost like~ £15 a UK gallon in the LHS
And then you check HAZMAT costs small quantity delivery solutions unlike petrol car forecourt big supply chain and the only solution is to buy a bigger engine which runs on petrol and spend 5 times as much on the model plane costs which goes with bigger planes

Or drop costs with buying a 48gallon UK drum of methanol at mayby £5 a UK gallon only to find that you been stiffed with the cheaper high water content type which makes the engines run rough and flame out most flights


Balsaeater



blw -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/26/2008 4:04:31 PM)

Castor is added because it offers a higher protection over synthetics, either here in the U.S. or Europe. Some European oils have better cling over some of the more popular glow fuel oils over here, but castor is still the best for hot and lean runs. I have yet to see any synthetic that survives the heat levels of castor, or more importantly, still provides the same protection when overheated. The varnish people mention about castor is the protection when you need it most. A blend of both castor and synthetic is the best bet.

I've always thought it a shame that nitro is heavily taxed in some places. There are a couple of countries in Europe where nitro is priced comparable to the U.S., but I forget which now. There were some interesting prices posted about a year ago.



Marcol -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/26/2008 6:18:47 PM)

You do not need to use castor oil if using a fuel containing Fuchs Aerosave synthetic oil. This oil provides better protection than castor and has far better anti-corrosion properties. Best of all it doesn't leave your engine looking a complete mess and seized solid after a lay up. It states specifically that a mineral based oil must not be used with Aerosave synthetic.

But as I said in my post you guys in the States don't have access to a fuel with this as the lubricant, so therefor you will have to continue to use a blend of synthetic and castor.

If you can get hold of some Prosynth 2000 fuel or a fuel with Aerosave as the lubricant. I can bet that castor oil will be a distant memory , as it was for me about 10 years ago.



Red B. -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/26/2008 7:27:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcol
You do not need to use castor oil if using a fuel containing Fuchs Aerosave synthetic oil.

I fully agree with that. I have made the change from castor to synthetic/castor to synthetic only some years ago and I am not going back to castor oil. It may be that in an extreme lean run situation castor oil may offer somewhat better "protection", but I doubt that such situations are likely to occur unless some serious engine abuse is taking place. Other than that and the fact that I am partially addicted to the smell of burnt castor oil, IMHO Aerosave is the undisputed king over castor oil.



SABREPD -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/26/2008 8:41:23 PM)

Hi Marcol,
I`m gonna try some Prosynth 2000 fuel this year. Could you just tell me that, I went onto that link you gave me and i`m not too sure if I understood it right. Do you have to buy 4 of them at a time? because it says x4, its just that I would like to try it first rather than buying 4 Gallons of it.

Thanks Nige.



balsaeater -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/26/2008 9:03:57 PM)

I presently get EDL synthetic oil at 32.5 euros a 1/2 gallon UK (65 Euros a UK gallon ~£ 51 uk gal ~ $ 100 for USA gallon )

Fuchs Aerosave synthetic oil. I assume is the AEROSYNTH/ AEROSAVE and Motul Micro" 2-stroke oil is reputed to be as good

I mostly use 10% oil less than ~5% nitro and more than ~ 85% Methanol with larger MVVS 90 to 160 glow engines on small madels so 1/2 gas mostly

Could the AEROSYNTH/ AEROSAVE or Motul Micro" 2-stroke oil go to less like 6% to 8% oil


where is the best place to buy in UK ,Germany France Spain if I ordered from there

I will also check France Germany and Spain but often Germany has cheapest post

balsaeater



XJet -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/26/2008 9:51:01 PM)

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I now use Cooper's Plus C (castor synth blend) at 12% in all my engines (except plain bearing ones) and had *zero* lubrication related problems in some 16 months of continuous use amounting to some 200 liters (44 US gal) of fuel consumed.

So, if you look hard enough, there *are* some decent synthetic oils available in the USA.



blw -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/27/2008 3:38:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcol

You do not need to use castor oil if using a fuel containing Fuchs Aerosave synthetic oil. This oil provides better protection than castor and has far better anti-corrosion properties. Best of all it doesn't leave your engine looking a complete mess and seized solid after a lay up. It states specifically that a mineral based oil must not be used with Aerosave synthetic.

But as I said in my post you guys in the States don't have access to a fuel with this as the lubricant, so therefor you will have to continue to use a blend of synthetic and castor.

If you can get hold of some Prosynth 2000 fuel or a fuel with Aerosave as the lubricant. I can bet that castor oil will be a distant memory , as it was for me about 10 years ago.



I would still add castor because I've not seen any proof that it will retain any lubricating property at the temps castor does. I've never seen castor seize up an engine if mixed with synthetic oil. I don't think Europe has some of the cheap cleaners we have here. It is easy and quick to clean off.



Red B. -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/27/2008 8:58:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: blw
I would still add castor because I've not seen any proof that it will retain any lubricating property at the temps castor does. I've never seen castor seize up an engine if mixed with synthetic oil. I don't think Europe has some of the cheap cleaners we have here. It is easy and quick to clean off.

Sure, go ahead and add castor oil to your fuel. I don't, because over the last couple of years I have not had one single engine problem that was related to the lubricating properties of the fully synthetic oil I am using. Why use cleaners when modern high quality synthetic oils such as Fuchs/Graupner Aerosave does away with the cleaning problem altogether?




Marcol -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/27/2008 8:59:33 PM)



The reason you haven't seen any proof is because you don't have access to Aerosave oil.

Castor was a great lubricant when we didn't have modern synthetics. But just like 20W-50 car engine oil, it's now very much old hat.

Would you run a modern turbocharged car on oil developed in the 1920's ? Of course you wouldn't. You would use a modern synthetic oil I would hope. How many Indy cars, Top fuellers or Formula 1 cars use old fashioned mineral oil ?

Answer................... None.

But it's a free country, so carry on. All I'm trying to say is that a fuel containing castor oil is not needed anymore.

Good luck with the cleaning [:D]



XJet -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/27/2008 9:23:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcol
But it's a free country, so carry on. All I'm trying to say is that a fuel containing castor oil is not needed anymore.


You are correct -- a *good* synthetic provides as much (if not more) protection as castor.

I've deliberately tried to destroy an engine by running it *very* lean with 12% Coopers synthetic oil (no castor) and after several tanks full I found *no* indication of wear or other damage.

However, a few percent of castor won't hurt and it won't make the engine dirty either.

So there's no *harm* in running a little castor.

It becomes a personal choice -- unless you're using one of the lower-quality synthetics such as Klotz or Morgans.





Marcol -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/27/2008 9:55:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SABREPD

Hi Marcol,
I`m gonna try some Prosynth 2000 fuel this year. Could you just tell me that, I went onto that link you gave me and i`m not too sure if I understood it right. Do you have to buy 4 of them at a time? because it says x4, its just that I would like to try it first rather than buying 4 Gallons of it.

Thanks Nige.


Hi Nige.
If you buy it direct from Weston they only ship 4 gallons at a time, post free. But as I mentioned if you go to Inwood models at Huntingdon you can buy it in 1 gallon containers. Other good model shops stock it as well.

Best bet is to go to any of the model shows over the summer and get it there. Or perhaps a few guys in your club could split the 4 gallons between them.



jessiej -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/28/2008 5:05:08 AM)

Wow! I am sure glad I don't have the problems with castor some of you guys seem to have. What kind of castor oil is available in the UK & Europe?

jess



Marcol -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/28/2008 9:50:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jessiej

Wow! I am sure glad I don't have the problems with castor some of you guys seem to have. What kind of castor oil is available in the UK & Europe?

jess

We don't have any problems whatsoever............... we don't use it [:D]



jessiej -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/29/2008 1:10:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcol


quote:

ORIGINAL: jessiej

Wow! I am sure glad I don't have the problems with castor some of you guys seem to have. What kind of castor oil is available in the UK & Europe?

jess

We don't have any problems whatsoever............... we don't use it [:D]



Aha! As I thought, You know nothing about it due to lack of experience.[:)] (Just kidding, no disrespect intended)

Speaking from experience, you should give castor a try, assuming you have access to decent quality castor, as you should due to the FAI
fuel requirements. Seriously, I have had none of the problems expressed by the proponents of various oils. OTOH, I am not a professional and have done this purely as a hobby for the past half century or so. I do not know how many engines I have run, but while I am sure it exceeds the 250-300 in my personal collection I am equally sure it is less than 800, so let me emphasize that my personal experience does not include a statistically significant number of model engines and I in no way ment to demean your own experience.

Whatever you use, enjoy the hobby, pass it along to others, and respect the choices of others.

BTW, I would really like to have ready access to some of that stuff you use. The small amounts of the oil I have tried worked quite well.

jess



balsaeater -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/29/2008 11:26:05 AM)

FAI competition it the rules only to use Castor

Its not allowed to use synthetic

Its difficult in lots of LHS and fuel source paces to easly get Castor oil fuel pre made in mainland Europe so you have to amke your own

In Uk they supply fuel with Castor and fuel with synthetic in LHS pre made


I avoid Castor as much as possible as Its gummy and super stinky compared to synthetic even though often it can be cheaper marginally but when I do FAI I have to do Castor

Japanese heli world champion competition users where maybe they allow synthetic are reputed to use super special synthetic at only 10% which they claim cant be got outside Japan and gives the heli a advantage as the others use 18% typically in 3d heli

Castor in cold weather can seperate in fuel so they say and engine lock up with chewing gum sticky problems and i like to fly all year round


Roughly all engine will work with both oils and will be usualy cheaper with Castor and will need 20% castor for most all engine and 25% castor for ducted fan OSVR DF 91 and will require less synthetic oil typicaly 18% for most engine and 23% 50%castor 50% synthetic for OS 91 ducked fan and less oil amounts for larger engine like 10% synthetic for 26cc MVVS

So smaller motors more oil and larger less oil so i have fuel of two type 12% EDL for smaller motors sports use and 10% EDL for larger 25 to 40cc motors with ~3 to 5% nitro and if I do FAI I change to 20% Castor witth no nitro


Balsaeater



blw -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/29/2008 3:09:39 PM)

All I'm saying is that I've not seen reputable test comparisons on these new miracle oils only available in Europe. I'm not saying any member here isn't reputable because many are, but I'm waiting for lab/review tests. I haven't seen where any synthetic oil protects to the same point that castor will. I'm sure that most of the synthetic oils are good. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to run only castor as my lube in glow fuel either.

The comparisons to turbine engines and auto racing engines doesn't apply to our model engines. There really isn't any common ground for doing that.



downunder -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/29/2008 4:12:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: balsaeater
... and if I do FAI I change to 20% Castor witth no nitro

Which FAI events do you compete in because FAI fuel is only specified for one event each in CL, RC and Free Flight? The rest of them are run what ya brung :). Well, except for CL FAI combat which I think is limited to 10% nitro, oil is optional...



jessiej -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/30/2008 1:04:04 AM)

Ahem... The individual who started this thread simply asked, in complete innocence, if there was an all around glow fuel. In return RCM subscribers, myself included have responded with over 20 posts in the ongoing castor vs whatever,\; my oil is better than your oil nyah nyah nyah, etc. gernre. The number of posts on this subject must be nearing infinity,

Some how I expect that what our gentle reader wanted was something to the effect of a nitro and oil percentafe for engines of a general size and type.

I would like one of our True Experts to:

1. Answer this fellows question.

2. Read all the (myriad) posts on the castor/synthetic question and;
A. provide a synopsis.

B. sumarize the arguments, pro and con, for each side.

C. determine the optimum oil type(s), or combination thereof for various model
engines, and

D. document the findings.

There should perhaps be some discussion as to whom might be qualified to verify the findings as valad. This may prove difficult as so many have declaired their opinions as inviolable, but I am sure it is possible.



balsaeater -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/31/2008 8:39:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: downunder

quote:

ORIGINAL: balsaeater
... and if I do FAI I change to 20% Castor witth no nitro

Which FAI events do you compete in because FAI fuel is only specified for one event each in CL, RC and Free Flight? The rest of them are run what ya brung :). Well, except for CL FAI combat which I think is limited to 10% nitro, oil is optional...



Some years backI did club 20 pylon and that was rules FAI 80%Methaol 20% Castor

Rules might have changed since as I changed into electric f5d limited as my budjets cxoldn don 40 pylon and tuning such small 20 motors was a real headacke especialy switching betwen oil types which lots of us did because ready made castor fuel outside competion events was difficult to locate at that time

Balsaeater



downunder -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (3/31/2008 12:17:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: balsaeater
Some years backI did club 20 pylon and that was rules FAI 80%Methaol 20% Castor

Fair enough..so it was just a local club rule. I thought you meant an actual FAI contest.



Austis -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (4/6/2008 8:57:31 AM)

I allways hear someone say that castor is much better than synt oils on LEAN runs and glowing hot engines.
BUT... first of all, you should not run your engine too lean!
So instead of just pour in to much oil(20-25%) and use all kinds of oil in it, do this:
Break in the engine (if its new) the way the manual says.
then, when that is done and you have come to the point of when the engine is ready to run on its optimum settings, all you have to do is adjust the hi speed needle to the point of when you pinc the fuel supply to the carb(just a quick pinch) it will increase a little bit for a second, then return to how it runed before.
that means your engine is running a little to rich when its on the ground.(it allways leans out alittle in air and when pointing the nose up)
But I mean just a little increas in rpm when you pinch it for a split second.

I you do this you never have to lean run, you never have a too hot engine(to hot when not to lean is an indication of a not broken in engine), and best of all, no need whatsoever for castor, if using a good synt oil.

but before each flying day, I allways do the test of adjusing the hi speed needle to make sure my engine runs at optimum setting for the condition that is THAT day.
temp, and alot of things may require alittle adjusment of the engine.
But when you run glow, you should take your time learing to run the engine correctly, insted of trying to find idiot-proof fuel.

aggreed?



balsaeater -> RE: Allround Glow Fuel? (4/6/2008 10:10:27 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Austis

....edit...
......when the engine is ready to run on its optimum settings, all you have to do is adjust the hi speed needle to the point of when you pinc the fuel supply to the carb(just a quick pinch) it will increase a little bit for a second, then return to how it runed before.
that means your engine is running a little to rich when its on the ground.(it allways leans out alittle in air and when pointing the nose up)
But I mean just a little increas in rpm when you pinch it for a split second.

I you do this you never have to lean run, you never have a too hot engine(to hot when not to lean is an indication of a not broken in engine), and best of all, no need whatsoever for castor, if using a good synt oil.

......edit...






I like that pinch idea accept for fully cowled over engines it will require a mechanical pinch device like long nosed pliers or tweezers or similar

Its too expensive and removes to much power to throw gobs of oil at the problem and Castor oli even 2% is so awfully messy


That doesn't address the issue of where the idle jet is to lean and transition to full gas makes engine quit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Austis

....edit...

but before each flying day, I always do the test of adjusting the hi speed needle to make sure my engine runs at optimum setting for the condition that is THAT day.


......edit...






For the mechanically challenged for tuning using higher Nitro methane rates like 30% if motors are made for those higher rates will mean the tuning band will be far wider and tuning will be a lot more easy mostly because the Nitromethane means that the engine gets a lot of oxygen from the fuel and is less affected from outside atmosphere affects like humidity or temperature but 30% rates can easy triple fuel costs in WOT as the the nitro methane is ~10 times the cost of methanol and gets consumed ~4.5 times faster than methanol but is a real good way to idiot proof a fuel if you got lots of money to throw at the problem

Balsaeater



Page: [1] 2   next >   >>  

Valid CSS!




SITE MAP!   : :   FORUM RULES

© 2001 - 2007 24-7 RC, LLC, all rights reserved.
0.4365234