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All Forums >> Radios, Batteries, Clubhouse and more >> Batteries & Chargers >> understanding batteries
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understanding batteries - 3/23/2008 10:30:53 PM   
chrisp32


 

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hey guys so i am looking for some help on understanding batteries and chargers a little better. So i know that a higher mAH rating on a battery will give it a longer duration right or that it could put out a high amperage. but what is the mAH rating mean and how would i relate it to estimateing flight times and charging times, then how does that relate the mAH rating on a charger?if it is higher can it charger faster? if some one could run me through the basics i would appreciate it alot. I find that asking people on here, i learn better than reading it in a report and document prepaired for school or something thanks for the help guys.

Chris
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RE: understanding batteries - 3/24/2008 3:28:56 AM   
Nathan King



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You're not stupid, this is a common point of difficulty with people. Many "veterans" don't even really understand it.

For modeling purposes, all you need to know is that a battery is a device that provides free electrons and allows them to pass through a conductor (wire). Voltage is the force that pushes the current through the conductor. Current is the amount of electrons ('energy') passing through the conductor in a given time. Resistance is the opposition to the flow of current. This is any type of load (servos, etc). Batteries have two different ratings (amperage and voltage). Voltage is simple - you must choose the voltage that your model needs. Current is a little more ambiguous. mAh stands for milli ampere hours (1000 mA = 1A). A 2000mAh battery could provide 1A for two hours, 2A for one hour, 500mA for four hours, etc. Just so you know, voltage = current x resistance (V=IR). This is why the voltage in your battery drops as you use it. According to Ohm's law, as the current drains and load remains constant the voltage must drop.

Chargers.... Are you talking about NiCd chargers? The cheap chargers that come with the radios charge at C/10. That is, 1/10th the capacity per hour of charge. Therefore, it would mathematically take 10 hours to fully charge a completely dead battery. In reality it will take a bit longer since the charging process is not 100% efficient. Safe charging speeds really depend on the particular battery chemistry you are dealing with.

Cells..... Let's further explain that NiCd battery in the previous example. A battery pack is made up of individual cells. In the case of NiCds each cell has a nominal voltage of 1.2V. That's why a 9.6V pack has 8 cells (1.2*8=9.6). A NiCd cell will have a voltage around 1.28V fully charged. Therefore your 9.6V pack will actually be a little over 10V when full. When the cells drop below 1.2V your pack is about dead. Again, different battery chemistries have different nominal cell voltages.

What batteries specifically are you looking for information on?

Hope this helps.

< Message edited by Nathan King -- 3/24/2008 2:39:25 PM >



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RE: understanding batteries - 3/24/2008 2:30:13 PM   
SitNFly


 

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Good info here: http://www.rcbatteryclinic.com/

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RE: understanding batteries - 3/24/2008 5:52:18 PM   
SilverFoxCPF


 

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Hello Chris,

Battery basics...

At the time a battery is manufactured, there are a series of tests done to determine the capacity of the battery. This involve following standards set for the battery industry.

A standard charge involves taking the battery capacity, dividing it by 10, and charging at that rate for 16 hours. This is referred to as a 0.1C charge.

A standard discharge involves discharging the battery over 5 hours. This is referred to as a 0.2C discharge.

This is how battery capacity is determined.

This testing is done by sample testing. Not every individual battery is tested. Sometimes the manufacturer will sell batteries to someone that re-labeles the battery with their own brand name. The re-labelers look at the manufacturers data sheets, then it seems the "make up" some capacity numbers that tend to inflate the capacity rating. This may be why some batteries are unable to live up to their capacity ratings.

If a battery is loaded with a 660 milliamp load, and continues to provide that load for 5 hours, we then can do some math and come up with the capacity of that battery.

We have 660 mA X 5 hours = 3300 milliAmphours.

In an ideal world, this same cell would be able to power a load of 3300 milliAmps for 1 hour, but there are some losses, so it actually comes in a little less than 1 hour.

If we refer to the capacity of the cell as "C," then we can play with multiples of C when talking about charging and discharging.

If you have a 3300 mAh cell, and your load is 10 amps, you are loading the cell at 10 divided by 3.3 = 3.03C.

If you charge the same cell at 6 amps, you are charging at 6 amps divided by 3.3 mAh = 1.82C.

Now things get a little fuzzy...

A higher capacity cell may offer more capacity, but it may not be able to deliver that capacity under high loads. This is where testing comes in.

When you see graphs showing a discharge curve, it has a lot of information in it. A 3300 mAh cell may hold a voltage of 1.1 volts under a 10C load. In comparison, a 4400 mAh cell may only be capable of holding 1.0 volts under a 33 amp load.

In this case the 4400 mAh cell will give you longer runtime, at the expense of punch and top speed.

The challenge is to hold voltage under load and still get decent runtime.

Charging your cells and packs has a lot to do with your charger. NiMh cells, when charged with a charger that uses peak detection to terminate the charge, need to be charge in the 0.5 - 1.0C range. For a 3300 mAh cell, that works out to charging at 1.65 - 3.3 amps. To get better performance, most people charge at 1C. Some cells can be charged at higher rates, but it is hard on the cells. If used "hot off the charger," faster charged cells can give you a little more "punch" right off the line.

NiMh cells do not tolerate overcharging. If you overcharge your cells, you kill them. The same goes for heat. If your cells get too hot, you kill them. NiCd chemistry is more tolerant of heat and overcharging, but eventually those cells will also die from abuse.

There are situations when you can't charge at 1C. If your transmitter uses a battery carrier, it may not be able to handle the higher currents of 1C charging. In this case, you charge at 0.1C for 14 - 16 hours. The cells may receive a little bit of overcharge, but at this low charge rate, the damage from the overcharge is minimal.

Sanyo, and other battery manufacturers, have a pretty good technical handbook on their web site. It may be worth your while taking a look at that while you are trying to figure all of this out.

Tom

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RE: understanding batteries - 3/24/2008 5:53:58 PM   
SilverFoxCPF


 

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Hello Nathan,

Most of the NiCd batteries I have ever used come in at a little higher voltage than 1.28 volts when fully charged. Mine come in at 1.5 - 1.6 volts.

Tom

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RE: understanding batteries - 6/2/2008 12:09:50 AM   
ads8525


 

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So if I have a battery that is 4.8 2200mA, what is the votage I should stop flying my heli? I have been told once it goes below 4.8. In my case I charged the battery and after two flights it drops to 4.9. After the 3rd flight it is 4.8 or less. I would think that the battery would last longer than 3 flights.

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RE: understanding batteries - 6/2/2008 12:25:37 AM   
rlmcnii


 

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.....25,
Depends on the quality of the cell, the quality of the connectors, the quality of the charge, and the load on the pack.
See if you can find some discharge curves for your cells. Many of them fall of rapidly in voltage after discharged to 1.1 volts/cell. You don't want to be flying when the cells reach the point in the curve where the precipitous drop in voltage occurs.

Not all batteries are created equally. This seems to be particularly true since many batteries are now manufactured in China. And, just because a cell has a larger mA rating does not mean that it can deliver all of its rated current. See the post just above by SilverFox.

Read as much as you can about batteries and don't take them for granted. OEM batteries that come with many radios may not be the best to actually use in a plane or helicopter.

Good luck.

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RE: understanding batteries - 6/2/2008 4:21:54 PM   
4-Tec™Impreza



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What is the best discharge rate for NiCd's and NiMh's? My IntelliPeak ICE can discharge at 10amps, is that too high? should I just stick to 1C or maybe 2C ratings?

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RE: understanding batteries - 6/2/2008 4:56:12 PM   
Rodney



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quote:

ORIGINAL: 4-Tec�Impreza

What is the best discharge rate for NiCd's and NiMh's? My IntelliPeak ICE can discharge at 10amps, is that too high? should I just stick to 1C or maybe 2C ratings?

Why are you discharging? If it is to check for capacity, the discharge rate should not be greater than 0.25C and the end point should be 0.9 volts/cell if you are checking against factory specifications. On either NiMh or NiCad there is no need to discharge other than to check capacity. If you are worried about memory in NiCad's, forget it; it just does not happen in the way they are used in RC. Check out http://www.dansdata.com/gz011.htm for a good lesson re memory in a Ni based battery.


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RE: understanding batteries - 6/2/2008 4:57:57 PM   
Rodney



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SilverFox CPF, congradulations on an excellent post. It is refreshing to see someone posting good pertinent and valid info on batteries.

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RE: understanding batteries - 6/4/2008 1:32:30 AM   
Jazzy



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Rodney, there you go again - ruining things with your 0.25C discharge thing.

Post a link to as many different manufacturer's info as you can.


Many microprocessor based discharger/chargers will come up with the same mAH for a given pack regardless of the discharge rate. (Within reason of course.)

To accurately gauge the usable capacity in a given pack it should be discharged at or near the rate at which it is commonly used. Different cell types (both chemistry and size) often have varying max discharge rates.

ADS8525, what is the primary use of the pack you are using? Does it function as both motor and receiver power or just receiver power?

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