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quote:
Preface- This thread has shown itself to be a nice listing of books and in some cases software related to understanding airfoils in particular and aerodynamics in general. It has been stickied to provide a service to anyone looking for reference material. At some point I''ll provide a one stop listing of the books and software mentioned as part of this quote.
If anyone knows sources to obtain the books please mention those as well so they can be included in this preface.
Bruce Matthews
I''ve worked my way through Andy Lennon''s book R/C Model Airplane Design and currently reading the classic by Martin Simons, Model Aircraft Aerodynamics. My question is what''s the next book for a model aerodynamics enthusiast and hopeful designer. I''ve heard Abbott''s book, Theory of Wing Sections is pretty informative. Simons mentions a couple of interesting sounding works by H.L. Chevalier (Challenge Engineering?) in his book''s appendix but I''ve yet to come across them. Any other good stuff out there? (I understand calculus etc. and have an ME degree..)
EDIT: I am so impressed with Martin Simons book I have to give it a better plug! Here's the review I wrote for Amazon:
Don't judge this book by it's lightweight looking cover like I once did. This book is a CLASSIC filled with 100's of pages of important information for understanding aerodynamics in general and improving your model aircraft. Simons has a gift for conveying all of this knowledge without resorting to mind-numbing mathematics, instead relying on vector graphics and charts so that all can follow along. I am now reading the book for a second time highlighting important bits as I go! It's a great value for anyone wanting to design or just learn more about their R/C hobby. There are even chapters on the dynamics of propellers and helicopters. Appendix 1 contains all the salient calculations necessary to design a plane from scratch. Appendix 2 has some experimental data on airfoils. Appendix 3 has hundreds of airfoils and laminar bodies from many different sources. Publishers: please add more polar data to appendix 2 and replace that cheesy cover with something more appropriate in the next edition.
< Message edited by CrateCruncher -- 4/29/2008 7:21:26 PM >
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Abbott and von Doenhoff'sbook is actually a somewhat focused book. It basically works over the NACA profiles in detail. Before doing so, it does run through a lot of theory and hits on a bunch of experimental findings.
No way is it a book for the masses. You will make use of your engineering training for sure. It's heavy on the equations but also the charts and graphs.
Theory of Wing Sections was originally published in 1949. No, I didn't buy it new then, but I did pay $5 for a brand new 2nd edition. It is a paperback, after all.
It's almost 700 pages, but slightly more than half is appendix most of that devoted to the profiles. One of the best uses I've made is the list of references. There are a lot that included descriptions of the NACA reports themselves. It can save you a bit of effort selecting ones worth purchasing. That is, if they're still available. Haven't wanted any in years.
I remember seeing and taking out "Theory of Wing Sections" from our bigger main library many years ago. It was more to try to pick up on some sort of general understanding rather than hack through the math. For that purpose there were about 15 to 20 pages that helped. From there it was full on jumping into the deep end armed with a slide ruler. Yes it was THAT long ago. I was a teenager without the math knowledge to understand more than a tiny handful of the math.
If you go that deep into this I'd also recomend tempering what it teaches with reading the prep work that Michel Selig did in getting ready for his first big wind tunnel work. There is a lot of good information in there about the differences in airfoil shapes for lower reynolds numbers such as we use. That transition may also help you to understand why for super low speed airfoils such as free flight and indoor that the airfoils of choice get increasingly thinner and why an arced flat plate is the best choice for extreme and stupidly slow flight.
It's also interesting to see the shift away from mathematically designed airfoils such as the NACA stuff and the use of pressure distribution analysis as used in Xfoil where the shape means little as long as it provides a suitable pressure distribution.
< Message edited by BMatthews -- 3/31/2008 5:17:35 PM >
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BMatthews
I remember seeing and taking out "Theory of Wing Sections" from our bigger main library many years ago. It was more to try to pick up on some sort of general understanding rather than hack through the math. For that purpose there were about 15 to 20 pages that helped. From there it was full on jumping into the deep end armed with a slide ruler. Yes it was THAT long ago. I was a teenager without the math knowledge to understand more than a tiny handful of the math.
If you go that deep into this I'd also recomend tempering what it teaches with reading the prep work that Michel Selig did in getting ready for his first big wind tunnel work. There is a lot of good information in there about the differences in airfoil shapes for lower reynolds numbers such as we use. That transition may also help you to understand why for super low speed airfoils such as free flight and indoor that the airfoils of choice get increasingly thinner and why an arced flat plate is the best choice for extreme and stupidly slow flight.
It's also interesting to see the shift away from mathematically designed airfoils such as the NACA stuff and the use of pressure distribution analysis as used in Xfoil where the shape means little as long as it provides a suitable pressure distribution.
Glad to see your comments on the airfoils Being a firm believer in "you can't beat actual experience " I stopped tryng to wade thru the airfoil selections years ago --when I saw there was very little correlation with the models I was using and some proven , common airfoils When I got into absolutely FLAT plates and still had guys trying to tell me some "airfoil" would work better I decided I was into areas not really explored thoroughly in PAST books . which made sense, as the flat plate - high power super low wing loading -simply never existed 5 years ago. This experience was a golden treat for me as I quickly got to see how much the teaching of many years experience actually relate to current, NEW model technology some does (of course) some - well does not. It isn't that the rulesof flight have changed- it is just that the new stuf explores different parameters.
Edited to remove off topic material.... -BCM
< Message edited by BMatthews -- 4/3/2008 2:27:59 AM >
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And back to the subject of books.........
As BMatthews says, there are pages in the Theory of Wing Sections that are quite instructive. I found that the math wasn't actually of much value to me, but the general presentation was very worthwhile. There is a section on the Theory of Thin Wing Sections for example. It's quite interesting to note how much is actually known even if it's not showing up on C5Bs or F-22s nowadays.
What is of unique value from this book are the many charts that compared actual test results versus the theoretical predictions. But sections like the High Lift Devices section were the most useful. The book seems to document a lot of the low speed research being done at the time. And that means it covers a lot of what we're interested in right now. The numbers and equations really aren't of much value, but the comparisons and relationships certainly are valid. And a lot of that information is shown in charts.
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Joined: 3/31/2008 From: Chicago, IL, USA Status: offline
To the original poster, read books from Selig or go to Martin Hepperle's site. These guys know what they're talking about, especially when it comes to model aircraft airfoils. These guys have the analysis to back them up.
Baker
edit........ the topic is "Good Reading" and is about books on aeronautics.
< Message edited by da Rock -- 4/1/2008 1:36:30 AM >
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Joined: 12/12/2001 From: slc, UT, USA Status: offline
before I leave this site -for good I have had a number of guys ask whre I got the info for building the performance models I have (which have flat wings )- I tell em there apparantly is no published info on these models Each time I bring it up - I get nothing but ridicule here and advice to read books which do not apply. In total disgust - I am as they say, gone.
< Message edited by dick Hanson -- 4/1/2008 4:41:20 PM >
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Dick, please stick around. Those of us who know you respect your input. There's book learning and there's practical experience. I'll go with the latter in the final analysis every time.
That's from practical experience too.
< Message edited by tony-howard -- 4/1/2008 6:16:47 PM >
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I appreciate everyone''s input here. I made an Amazon purchase last night. I bought Wing Sections by Abbott and Theory of Flight by von Mises. I considered Elements of Airfoil and Airscrew Theory by Glauert thinking it might have a bit more discussion on prop theory but ultimately reasoned von Mises had it covered and was cheaper.
I don''t want anyone to think all I do is sit around and read books. I currently am flying a Bridi Kaos and working on a "scratch built from plans" Duelist Twin in the Kit Building forum where I am making good progress and have had some thoughtful input along the way:http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_7165436/tm.htm. I have begun working with Profili 2 and XFOIL. My ultimate goal is to be able to design my own aerobatic and scale r/c planes.
Balsa, foam and many composite materials are very inexpensive in commodity form and make for rapid prototypes. I''m having a ball tinkering in this hobby.
EDIT: Regarding Abbott, see my comments on post 23. I don''t recommend it as a reference for model designers.
< Message edited by CrateCruncher -- 4/22/2008 5:06:05 PM >
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BTW, if you're looking for something fun to read...............
You will get a kick out of this one, if you can find it.
It's one of the first "scientific" books on model airplanes that was available and affordable. The author was born in 1885 if that gives you a clue. It was actually published in 1955, just a year before he died. I think I paid $1.75 for it new. I would have had to pay full price. And tax would have been 2% at that time.
You will get a look at modeling when it was young. It's basically about free flight and control line, which were pretty much where modeling was at back then. But a bunch of it is actually useful. And it's like almost all books on aero, some of it's not directly useful, but some of it is. Interestingly enough, there is a fair amount in it about flat plate airfoils.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CrateCruncher
I've worked my way through Andy Lennon's book R/C Model Airplane Design and currently reading the classic by Martin Simons, Model Aircraft Aerodynamics. My question is what's the next book for a model aerodynamics enthusiast and hopeful designer. I've heard Abbott's book, Theory of Wing Sections is pretty informative. Simons mentions a couple of interesting sounding works by H.L. Chevalier (Challenge Engineering?) in his book's appendix but I've yet to come across them. Any other good stuff out there? (I understand calculus etc. and have an ME degree..)
Crate,
Recently, I ordered this book from Amazon: Fundamentals of Aerodynamics by John D. Anderson. GREAT BOOK and matches your math background and degree. With a EE degree, I have no problems with the book.
Frank's book was one of the first studies along with Circular Airflow that actually paid much attention to model sized aerodynamics and seriously looked at the world we free flighters and slower RC modelers fly in. His study of the forces and trimming requirements for a high powered free flight model was legendary stuff and is still required reading for any power free flight flyer that isn't all wound up in clockwork trim tabs.
He's also one of the first to seriously look at the curved flat plate airfoils used for indoor modelling.
It's one of those situations where us modellers had to fend for ourselves and as such I think it should be required reading for anyone that ventures into wingspans of under 5 feet and especially for folks looking at parkflyers and the like.
For example he showed that at "our" reynolds numbers the stall occurs at a far lower angle of attack than for full sized aircraft.
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Good Reading? - 
It is a paperback, after all. 
