Turboprop in IMAC  
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Turboprop in IMAC - 3/29/2008 8:29:59 AM   
TommyWatson



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I have a Carden 35% Extra powered by a Wren Turboprop. I would like to know if it it would be suitable and would it be legal in IMAC competition. I am talking about the Basic competition as I am a very ordinary aerobatic pilot but would like to have a go at IMAC. Are there any problem you can see I would encounter using the turboprop?. It has approximatly the performance of a 100cc Carden Extra.








Regards





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RE: Turboprop in IMAC - 3/29/2008 3:52:28 PM   
DMichael


 

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Tommy,

I interpret the rules as saying that only reciprocating internal combustion engines and electric motors are allowed.

Having said that, as a CD I wouldn't turn you away. My advice would be to contact the CD's of the contests you'd like to attend and get the OK from them before you go. I'd be surprised if anyone says no. I think the case can easily be made that a turboprop is closer to scale than an electric motor and electric motors are allowed. Maybe even more scale than the traditional gas/petrol engines we run! This is probably just one of those areas that hasn't yet been discussed by the IMAC rules committee.

Not only that- this is definitely cool and in my experience IMAC loves cool and crowd pleasing.

Dave

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RE: Turboprop in IMAC - 3/29/2008 9:32:26 PM   
as722


 

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I love to see it and I would even give you extra points for the cool factor. LOL


Albert

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RE: Turboprop in IMAC - 3/30/2008 1:44:48 AM   
Rcpilot


 

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I understand the rules in BASIC class as this:

Fly what ya brung.

If it's a fixed wing aircraft, and you want to fly it--bring it on!! Got a B-52? Fly it! Got a trainer? Fly it! Got an electric Stryker? Fly it!

Of course, thats only in the BASIC class. Beyond that, you have to have a "scale" aircraft that has competed in full scale IAC at that level. For example, I don't think anyone has ever flown a full scale Decathlon in Unlimited class of IAC. So, you really can't fly IMAC in the Unlimited class with a Decathlon either. I might be wrong on that specific plane (just using it as an example) --but the point is, you can't fly a plane in IMAC beyond the level at which same full scale airframe has competed in IAC.

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RE: Turboprop in IMAC - 3/30/2008 3:37:19 AM   
sweetpea01



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That is incorrect information.


The rule states that you the plane must have flown in IAC or be capable of flying in IAC. There are several models out there that never quite got into IAC but meet the rule.

What does this actually mean to us?


Basically your standard aerobatic planes are just fine to fly in any class of IMAC. No where does it state that the aircraft had to fly in a specific class. What is required is that the plane can fly the manuevers and stay within the airspace. And when I say plane.......I refer to the full scale version. This is why a P-51 for example is not allowed in the upper classes....though the model version can do everything inside the airspace the full scale cannot.


Of course the last piece of data that everyone forgets.......the Contestant is responsible for proving that their plane meets the rule. Documentation/video etc would be helpful.

As for the turbine rule......this was more meant toward the use of turbines as used in Jets. A turbo prop is a different beast and still uses a prop. There are several full scale versions of turbo prop planes that might just fit the rule if one could prove it.

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RE: Turboprop in IMAC - 3/30/2008 6:50:49 AM   
Silent-AV8R



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Except he said Basic, so the IAC thing does not apply. No pattern plane or Stik ever flew in IAC, but they are perfectly legal in Basic. Sportsman and above the scale aircraft rule applies.

But this rule DOES apply, even to Basic:

• 4. Model Aircraft Specifications.
4.1. Only one (1) propeller per aircraft
shall be allowed. Internal combustion
reciprocating engines and electric motors shall be allowed.
If the aircraft is utilizing an internal
combustion engine, only one (1) engine shall be
allowed. If the aircraft is utilizing electric
motors, more than one (1) electric motor may be
used.

So, turbines are NOT allowed. End of story. Sorry. Now an individual CD can certainly waive this rule, but Sweetpea I know for one would never do such a thing since a rule is a rule!! The rule explicitly states that the motive force MUST be either a reciprocating engine or an electric motor. Turbines are not allowed.

And speaking of the rule Sweetpea quoted, heres is the actual rule:

3.1. The events accommodate aerobatic
monoplanes and biplanes which are replicas of
types known to have competed in International
Aerobatic Club (IAC) competition, or replicas of
types known to be capable of aerobatic
competition within the airspace know as the
“Box.”

And sorry Sweetpea, a P-51 has been shown to be capable of aerobatics inside the airspace known as the "Box" and is therefore legal. Fred pointed this out a few years back when this question was hotly debated.

< Message edited by Silent-AV8R -- 3/30/2008 6:51:15 AM >


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RE: Turboprop in IMAC - 3/30/2008 8:11:27 AM   
TommyWatson



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Oh well, I guess I will just have to try to improve my flying by practicing by myself. And I really do need to improve my flying!!!.

Regards





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RE: Turboprop in IMAC - 3/30/2008 8:36:50 AM   
sweetpea01



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R

Except he said Basic, so the IAC thing does not apply. No pattern plane or Stik ever flew in IAC, but they are perfectly legal in Basic. Sportsman and above the scale aircraft rule applies.

But this rule DOES apply, even to Basic:

• 4. Model Aircraft Specifications.
4.1. Only one (1) propeller per aircraft
shall be allowed. Internal combustion
reciprocating engines and electric motors shall be allowed.
If the aircraft is utilizing an internal
combustion engine, only one (1) engine shall be
allowed. If the aircraft is utilizing electric
motors, more than one (1) electric motor may be
used.

So, turbines are NOT allowed. End of story. Sorry. Now an individual CD can certainly waive this rule, but Sweetpea I know for one would never do such a thing since a rule is a rule!! The rule explicitly states that the motive force MUST be either a reciprocating engine or an electric motor. Turbines are not allowed.

And speaking of the rule Sweetpea quoted, heres is the actual rule:

3.1. The events accommodate aerobatic
monoplanes and biplanes which are replicas of
types known to have competed in International
Aerobatic Club (IAC) competition, or replicas of
types known to be capable of aerobatic
competition within the airspace know as the
“Box.”

And sorry Sweetpea, a P-51 has been shown to be capable of aerobatics inside the airspace known as the "Box" and is therefore legal. Fred pointed this out a few years back when this question was hotly debated.



Thanks for clarifing all the rules.

I understand Basic is bring what you got. I doubt any CD in any country would tell a turbo prop guy they couldn't fly in Basic. Show me your AMA turbine waiver, safety gear and you would be good to go in the basic class. I'm actually very flexible in the Basic class.....that is what it is for, to bring folks into IMAC. Once you move up then its time to get serious.

The AMA rules were written before Turbo prop aerobatic planes were available to the modeling public. I would expect to see a rule change when more turbo prop models become available like the Toucan.

I did not know that a P-51 had made legal......but as I stated earlier it is still up to the contestant to show the CD that the said model is legal. Since I don't know Fred nor how it was deemed legal I would have to ask for proof. Of course if I was flying a model like that I would carry my proof with me to every contest until it was common knowledge by all modelers.

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RE: Turboprop in IMAC - 3/30/2008 4:12:00 PM   
DMichael


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TommyWatson

Oh well, I guess I will just have to try to improve my flying by practicing by myself. And I really do need to improve my flying!!!.

Regards






Don't give up- contact the CD ahead of time and see if they can accomodate. It wasn't long ago that electric powered aircraft with more than one motor ganged together on a single shaft weren't legal- it was recognized as an unreasonable rule and changed. The turboprop is the same way. I would be VERY surprised if you couldn't be accomodated.



< Message edited by DMichael -- 3/30/2008 4:14:16 PM >


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RE: Turboprop in IMAC - 3/30/2008 5:08:24 PM   
sweetpea01



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I would agree. The intent of the rule was to ban Jets vs aerobatic planes. Nothing against jets mind you....just that they have their own place and IMAC wasn't it.

It shouldn't really matter how you power your Prop on a aerobatic plane.


Please be sure to go to the AMA site and fill out a rule change form and send it in. The process is every 2 yrs but if you don't fill one out it won't get changed!

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RE: Turboprop in IMAC - 3/31/2008 9:36:46 AM   
TommyWatson



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Thanks,

The plan is to fly a lot more with the Basic pattern in mind. Then I will find out when the next contest is to be held, call the CD to see if I will be allowed to compete.

All I really want to do is see if my model is capable and If I have enough skill to compete and not make a fool of myself.

I firmly believe that you can practice all day but by actually competing you really learn to fly.

Anyway we will see.

Regards







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RE: Turboprop in IMAC - 4/24/2008 12:41:04 PM   
dawesy


 

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Hey guys,

a question on turbines then, what if the real aircraft was powered by a gas turbine? How would that work? surely employing a gas turbine would be the most effective way to be faithful to scale, thus meeting a key intent of the rules?

An example might be the Oracle Raven, powered by a PT6. Some details in the following link Raven details

cheers,
dawesy

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RE: Turboprop in IMAC - 4/24/2008 10:06:52 PM   
Silent-AV8R



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The rules clearly state that only internal combustion or electric motors are allowed. Turbines are not allowed regardless of whether or not there was a full size plane with them.

Page SCA-2 - Scale Aerobatics rules"

4.1. Only one (1) propeller per aircraft
shall be allowed. Internal combustion
reciprocating engines and electric motors shall
be allowed. If the aircraft is utilizing an internal
combustion engine, only one (1) engine shall be
allowed. If the aircraft is utilizing electric
motors, more than one (1) electric motor may be
used.

This rule applies to ALL aircraft, regardless of class.

< Message edited by Silent-AV8R -- 4/24/2008 10:07:38 PM >


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RE: Turboprop in IMAC - 4/24/2008 10:54:06 PM   
Imac Kiwi



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Well this proves it is time for a rule change.

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