RE: Discussion of My Response to Greg Hahn's recent "The Inside Loop" column  
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All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> AMA Discussions >> RE: Discussion of My Response to Greg Hahn's recent "The Inside Loop" column
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RE: Discussion of My Response to Greg Hahn's recent &q... - 4/1/2008 2:18:50 PM   
combatpigg



Posts: 9512
Joined: 11/22/2003
From: arlington, WA, USA
Status: offline 		Why would you have to be a manufacturer to have the only valid opinion?There really weren't any problems with DSS?
I have somehow have a feeling that Baghdad Bob will be the next guy to chime in here, in Gregs' defense.

_____________________________

Led Zeppelin is NOT "old fogie" music.

(in reply to FTiano)
       Post #: 26

RE: Discussion of My Response to Greg Hahn's recent &q... - 4/1/2008 2:20:45 PM   
BillHarris



Posts: 833
Joined: 12/20/2002
From: Jasper, AL, USA
Status: offline 		I still agree with the OP's original post.

The reality is that although Greg can voice his opinion, as TD he now wears that hat and his opinions are now stamped with an air of officiality. As such, it displays poor judgement printing that piece.

All in all, Internet communications have greatly improved the products available to us, IMO.

AMA needs to do a cause-and-effect on declining membership. Too many opinions voiced those high in the food chain and folks vote with their feet...

--Bill

(in reply to FTiano)
       Post #: 27

RE: Discussion of My Response to Greg Hahn's recent &q... - 4/1/2008 2:46:54 PM   
STLPilot


 

Posts: 9091
Joined: 3/12/2003
From: Manhattan, NY, USA
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: FTiano

Guys, May I weigh in here?
I don't understand why you are all spending such valuable time beating this dead horse. The Man, Greg Hahn, voiced his OPINION, and Frankly Speaking,
it is pretty darn realistic! But whether you "agree" with him or not does not make him a bad person. I mean, many of us, me included, get crirticized all the time for crap we say and do. Does that make any of us a BAD person? And WHY should he apologize for making a generalization like Web Crawler, when you know darn well he was NOT being intentionaly malicious! Anyway, I say leave it be. He wrote his opinion and now somebody else can write a response. Funny thing is, none of the people writing the responses are Manufacturers that have been on the receiving end of some of the rumors Greg originally spoke about! I wonder how any of you would react, if someone on RCU started a thread about how one of YOUR products had a severe problem, when in fact it did not? And THAT is what the jist of his editorial was about. Let's not make it into something it is Not. Oh yeah, since I will probably take some heat for coming to his defense anyway, let me just say one more thing. I don't believe that ANYBODY owes an apology, to ANYONE, for something he writes, or voices, as an opinion in a guest editorial.

Frank

No heat from me, you couldn't be anymore correct. I say give the guy a medal, a raise and 150,000 handshakes.

_____________________________

Here At The Wall

(in reply to FTiano)
       Post #: 28

RE: Discussion of My Response to Greg Hahn's recent &q... - 4/1/2008 4:09:01 PM   
pburress


 

Posts: 13
Joined: 2/3/2004
From: Wichita, KS, USA
Status: offline 		What was I thinking??!! I feel so terrible!!!

I can't believe I've been such an idiot. I just got done reading Mr. Hahn's article again. To tell the truth my only other reading was very brief... I just skimmed it while flying at the field, during the the downwind leg of my Ziroli Corsair's landing approach.

I realize now that I was completely wrong. Mr. Hahn is quite obviously completely correct in every respect. Anyone whose eyes aren't completely clouded with CA fumes can see that.

For starters, ALL web crawlers ARE bottom dwellers, and the scum of the earth. A quick review of the so-called "build threads" over in Kit Building, or a look at some of the posting by the jerks in Electric Training will confirm that.

Verbal gossip IS completely accountable. I don't understand why it's not admissable in a court of law.

Newcomers should most definitely avoid sites like this, teeming with doomsayers and worthless advice.

We should NOT criticize any vendors, for any reason, ever. They are a sensitive bunch and we really might hurt their feeling causing them to cease operations. Then where we be? Off to the fishing hole I tell you because noone will step in to fill our needs. Who would want to deal with a bunch of hassles just for the sake of making money?

Don't even bother replying to me because I am cancelling my internet service and will crawl the web NO MORE. I will not associate with you BD's.

If you do decide to reply, for the benefit of those whom I've failed to convince, be sure you ask yourself: "Are you sure you know what you're talking about?" and "Do you really have all the facts"? If you can't INSTANTLY answer either of these questsions, then it's best to leave your .02 in your pocket. Oops, too late. That wasn't instant.

Finally I can only repeat Mr. Hahn in that the GOTCHA attitude must stop. And I mean stop TODAY, April 1st, 2008.

Sincerly,

Phil "I'm going glow" Burress
Wichita, KS
EDIT: APRIL FOOLS!

< Message edited by pburress -- 4/2/2008 3:40:41 PM >

(in reply to STLPilot)
       Post #: 29

RE: Discussion of My Response to Greg Hahn's recent &q... - 4/1/2008 5:09:28 PM   
littlecrankshaf



Posts: 2104
Joined: 12/9/2001
From: here
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FTiano
And WHY should he apologize for making a generalization like Web Crawler, when you know darn well he was NOT being intentionaly malicious! Anyway, I say leave it be.
Frank

Frank,


With all due respect if he had just used the term "Web Crawler" there would be little or no great issue and most of us would have considered his opinion worth at least a little bit of consideration but he didn't. His association of web crawler to bottom feeder is similar to a "electric flyers and other dumb azz idiots" article in MA... How is it he is to judge and use MA to admonish a group of people he perceives as less than worthy…isn’t that wrong?

If he came into this forum and took his lumps for some stupid post as the article he wrote then it would be fair and fine but we have no recourse of rebuttal as it stands now...No matter how you frame, turn it, look at it, that is wrong.

GH is not the only problem or even the biggest problem here. The bigger problem is the mechanism that allowed him to be a problem. No way around this one.

Now, maybe GH is good bud of yours but a good friend can also benefit from being held truly accountable. MA/AMA let him down and let us down. This BS should have never gone to print.

MA should be held to the standard that his article demeans others for not holding... purely hypocritical to the highest degree.

Yes, he was right…he is wrong.


_____________________________

Wow! Another epiphany…that is why the suckups suckup. Super sucking protection power. Yea baby.

(in reply to FTiano)
       Post #: 30

RE: Discussion of My Response to Greg Hahn's recent &q... - 4/1/2008 5:14:03 PM   
Hossfly



Posts: 3748
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: New Caney, TX, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FTiano

Guys, May I weigh in here?
I don't understand why you are all spending such valuable time beating this dead horse. The Man, Greg Hahn, voiced his OPINION, and Frankly Speaking,
it is pretty darn realistic! But whether you "agree" with him or not does not make him a bad person. I mean, many of us, me included, get crirticized all the time for crap we say and do. Does that make any of us a BAD person? And WHY should he apologize for making a generalization like Web Crawler, when you know darn well he was NOT being intentionaly malicious! Anyway, I say leave it be. He wrote his opinion and now somebody else can write a response. Funny thing is, none of the people writing the responses are Manufacturers that have been on the receiving end of some of the rumors Greg originally spoke about! I wonder how any of you would react, if someone on RCU started a thread about how one of YOUR products had a severe problem, when in fact it did not? And THAT is what the jist of his editorial was about. Let's not make it into something it is Not. Oh yeah, since I will probably take some heat for coming to his defense anyway, let me just say one more thing. I don't believe that ANYBODY owes an apology, to ANYONE, for something he writes, or voices, as an opinion in a guest editorial.

Frank


Another episode in "The world turns." Mr. Tiano, you have always been one of my Heroes, because you do seem to always "Git 'er Done!"
Well, SIR, that world just turned.

A Guest Editorial in the nonprofit member supported AMA's mag, Model Aviation, is a whole 'nother world. Whatever any editorial happens to be in any COMMERCIAL magazine makes no diff. to me. If I don't like any COMMERCIAL magazine, for editorials or whatever, I can CANCEL the subscription or simply not purchase. Not a practical thing to do when one enjoys participating and/or promoting model aviation even though that one has NO COMMERCIAL interest in the hobby sport.

I could say that a certain 30 minute epoxy resin will crystallize when stored for a year or so in a non-temperature-controlled environment. That might make some hairs stand up! So I won't say it even here, or in the magazine, Flying Models, even though I have 4 large boxes to use as evidence. I am confident that there are thousands of containers out there to be used to refute my point.

If the article had been prefaced by a disclaimer such as the following: "This article is the opinion of the author and not that of AMA, Model Aviation, or its staff, then there would be no problem as far as I am concerned.
HOWEVER IT WAS NOT, AND THEREFORE AS AN OFFICIAL EDITORIAL IN THE OFFICIAL AMA COMMUNICATION, IT RELATES AMA POSITION CONCERNING BOTH THE MEMBERSHIP AND THESE FORUMS THAT EXIST TO PROVIDE INTERACTION BETWEEN THE MEMBERS OF THE MODELING FRATERNITY.

Sorry, Frank, but that makes two visions of modeling ICONS shattered this past couple weeks.


_____________________________

Horrace Cain.
AMA Life L-93, Leader and CD for 45 years

The only source of knowledge is experience. Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned in school. Albert Einstein

(in reply to FTiano)
       Post #: 31

RE: Discussion of My Response to Greg Hahn's recent &q... - 4/1/2008 5:26:14 PM   
KidEpoxy



Posts: 3220
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Phil-
quote:

Finally I can only repeat Mr. Hahn in that the GOTCHA attitude must stop. And I mean stop TODAY, April 1st, 2008.


Great work.
Hook, line, & sinker right here. Touche, sir.

_____________________________

Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

(in reply to pburress)
       Post #: 32

RE: Discussion of My Response to Greg Hahn's recent &q... - 4/1/2008 9:40:26 PM   
The Toolman


 

Posts: 678
Joined: 11/29/2005
From: Warsaw, MO, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OVSS Boss

SB, Greg is a paid employee of the AMA President Dave Mathewson (actual AMA CEO officer), the Executive Council and Jim Cherry, not directly the membership. Not a single person in that building works for you in the literal sense, and there is a good reason. If an association were to fire any employee because some group has a burr in their arse concerning that employee, there would be no one to work there. So keep in mind who he works for as the main technical advisor of AMA, it is not you or me, but boys way above our pay grade.

Marc


Without the members there would be no ama.

I suppose you an stl think they would still exist without any of us though. LOL



Ronnie


_____________________________

Ron B.
AMA-862729 PB-2718

(in reply to OVSS Boss)
       Post #: 33

RE: Discussion of My Response to Greg Hahn's recent &... - 4/1/2008 10:41:29 PM   
OVSS Boss


 

Posts: 45
Joined: 7/11/2006
From: Lima, OH, USA
Status: offline 		Toolman, nope we have to have a membership, that is for sure, but I would guess most either agree or do not care one way or the other.

Marc

(in reply to The Toolman)
       Post #: 34

RE: Discussion of My Response to Greg Hahn's recent &... - 4/1/2008 10:49:37 PM   
KidEpoxy



Posts: 3220
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: offline 		I'm pretty sure CA Gov Gray Davis held the same Leader:Voter relationship in his state that OVSS alots to the AMA leadership. How did that turn out in the end?

quote:

If an association were to fire any employee because some group has a burr in their arse

No, it takes Lawnmowers for stuff like that to happen.

_____________________________

Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

(in reply to The Toolman)
       Post #: 35

RE: Discussion of My Response to Greg Hahn's recent &q... - 4/1/2008 10:57:47 PM   
804


 

Posts: 167
Joined: 9/17/2005
From: sheridan, IN, USA
Status: online 		.
quote:


If the article had been prefaced by a disclaimer such as the following: "This article is the opinion of the author and not that of AMA, Model Aviation, or its staff, then there would be no problem as far as I am concerned.
HOWEVER IT WAS NOT, AND THEREFORE AS AN OFFICIAL EDITORIAL IN THE OFFICIAL AMA COMMUNICATION, IT RELATES AMA POSITION CONCERNING BOTH THE MEMBERSHIP AND THESE FORUMS THAT EXIST TO PROVIDE INTERACTION BETWEEN THE MEMBERS OF THE MODELING FRATERNITY.



And since it surely was seen by several sets of AMA eyeballs before printing, they had several chances to kill the column, and did not. Meaning Muncie gave tacit approval to it.

You might see an apology for offensive language, but I bet not for the content.

If they were to apologize for the message, I would have less respect for AMA than you do for them sending it.

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 36

RE: Discussion of My Response to Greg Hahn's recent &... - 4/1/2008 11:25:28 PM   
Robotech



Posts: 904
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Pine Bluff, AR,
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

I'm pretty sure CA Gov Gray Davis held the same Leader:Voter relationship in his state that OVSS alots to the AMA leadership. How did that turn out in the end?

He was voted out by the people of the state of California. And if it met with his approval, that could also happen to the president of the AMA if enough ( > than the actively voting 7% ) of the AMA membership decided heads should roll. That's assuming, of course, that one is a voting member of the AMA.
quote:

If an association were to fire any employee because some group has a burr in their arse

No, it takes Lawnmowers for stuff like that to happen.

Or deliberately disobeying a direct order from your boss. But let's stay on topic.



The editorial was addressed specificaly to " Web Crawlers and other Bottom Feeders " Unless you consider yourself one of the two then you can choose to ignore the message. If it's hits a nerve or to hits a little close to home then by all means have at him. Send in a response defending the actions he finds detrimental to the hobby.

It's ironic that a few and certain individuals who pride themselves in "telling it like it is" should be so offended when someone actually does tell it like it is.

quote:

ORIGINAL POSTER:STLPilot

Greg Hahn should be awarded the organizational medal of honor. He could have not been more correct and these post editorial threads only confirms his stance.


I'll second that!

(in reply to KidEpoxy)
       Post #: 37

RE: Discussion of My Response to Greg Hahn's recent &... - 4/2/2008 1:48:59 AM   
KidEpoxy



Posts: 3220
Joined: 10/14/2004
From: San Antonio, TX, USA
Status: offline 		<EDIT: About to move to other thread.
I didnt see which thread this was, I'm gonna quote it into the correct thread,
then empty this post , Lets keep this thread on subject: Phil's response>



<Moved to respect thread topic>




< Message edited by KidEpoxy -- 4/2/2008 3:52:09 AM >

_____________________________

Optional MA is part of AMA history, we can go optional AGAIN if we just say so

(in reply to Robotech)
       Post #: 38

RE: Discussion of My Response to Greg Hahn's recent &... - 4/2/2008 2:05:04 AM   
kid chuckles


 

Posts: 720
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Granbury, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Sorry fella's got off topic pretty Quick. Great post though. I have to agree a new comer to the sport gets alot of negative stuff. Usually if someone asks about flying his newly aquired plane the first posts are. Your not ready, Your going to crash, get a trainer and months of instructing. That is what i don't care for. No praise of his new plane which is what most new folks need. Just post after post of you can't do it on your own.
Other than that his E-Mail was spot on and very well said. I bet he got some heads turning anyway.

< Message edited by kid chuckles -- 4/2/2008 12:14:40 PM >

(in reply to Robotech)
       Post #: 39

RE: Discussion of My Response to Greg Hahn's recent &... - 4/2/2008 2:49:48 AM