quote:

ORIGINAL: busted2props

It is very seldom that someone will enter a place, and right off the bat call you names. We use these forums for informational sources, and to just bounce stuff around and BS each other. Most of it is just to get different viewpoints, and maybe find something we missed along the way. But, to jump into an official publication and start name calling is way out of line!

I was always told "If you can't say something nice about someone, then say nothing." Can't say I live by that, but I don't start calling someone names before I am even introduced!

Mean Monte

quote:

ORIGINAL: pburress

Okay, here's my response:

"To Greg Hahn: Are YOU sure you know what you are talking about?

I just finished reading and re-reading the "Inside Loop" article by guest columnist Greg Hahn, and I would like to express my offense as well as strong disagreement with both its premise and content.

The column is addressed: "To Web crawlers and other bottom feeders..." What the...??? I am most certainly a "Web Crawler", as are, in fact, most people who haven't lived in a cave since before the 1990's, and am VERY offended at being labeled a "bottom feeder". If this is the attitude at Model Aviation, I'm sorry that your readership has other means of information available to them these days, but I don't think you are going to gain readership or anything else by insulting us in the broadest manner possible!

I spend a lot of time on one of the largest web forums, (Forum Name), and also post, albeit less frequently, on Rcuniverse, and I assume that it's sites like these to which Mr. Hahn is referring.

Mr. Hahn states that old-fashioned gossip had "at least a small amount of implied accountability" and presumably web postings do not. The fact is, verbal gossip has no accountability at all and can easily be distorted or denied altogether. Web postings, on the other hand, are written and will be read exactly as written, today and into the future, by hundreds or even thousands of individuals. That brings a level of accountability that verbal gossip just doesn't have. If you think about it, verbal gossip rarely has a positive impact at all and thus the very comparison to web postings, which can have a positive impact, is not a good one in the first place.

He also rails against advice given to newcomers on the web, implying that it's all "doom and gloom" and very discouraging to the newcomer. That has not been my experience at all. My perception of the advice given to newcomers is that it is generally very encouraging and positive. I strongly encourage any and all newcomers to spend time absorbing as much information and opinions as possible on these sites, and I feel that their chances of success and satisfaction will be greatly increased by it.

Of course it can be confusing to be confronted with dozens or hundreds of posts, many of which seemingly can contradict each other. This is an unfortunate by-product of having open and democratic forums, but in my opinion this is more than offset by the tremendous wealth of great information. One thing I've learned is that sometimes the people whom everyone thinks are "wrong" turn out to actually be the ones who are "right"!

By the way, in regards to what information is available on the web forums, the answer is "ALL of it”. I think that’s pretty cool.

Mr. Hahn goes on to lambaste the web community for criticizing manufacturers of hobby products, such as Futaba, JR, Hobbico and Horizon. I'm pretty sure that these vendors WANT to know how their customers feel. If false information about a manufacturer or product is prevalent, these manufacturers can easly make their own posts and straighten things out, and they often do. In fact, the CEO of GWS, a popular Taiwanese vendor, is an active and frequent poster on Rcgroups, as are many smaller "grass roots" companies. As consumers we have a right and obligation to make our voices heard. These forums are a wonderful way to do that.

Mr. Hahn implores us not to criticize these vendors because: "Most do not realize how easy it would be for Futaba or JR to one day stop making equipment for our hobby use." This is simply ridiculous. Here’s a quick economics lesson: These vendors are making and selling these products for the purpose of making profit, and will continue to do so as long as it is profitable. If or when they stop their production, it will because it is no longer profitable, and for no other reason... certainly not because the customers were "a hassle"! Those “hassles” are their bread and butter. As a self-employed consultant I say, "Bring on the hassles. More hassles please!" When the hassles stop is when I stop making money.

Finally, I'd like to point out that these sites are open forums, open to anyone and everyone. Mr. Hahn sees this a problem but I think it is their great strength. Of course you get some grumps, jerks, know-it-alls and even idiots, but you get that in any organization or collection of people, including RC clubs. But you also get many wise, experienced and genuinely helpful people. In any group of people you get a spectrum of personalities, and you have to take the bad with the good. If Mr. Hahn can't take some bad along with all the good, maybe he should stay in his comfort zone, off the web and perhaps at the local club where likely the only advice they ever give a newcomer is "buy "x model" .40 sized fuel powered trainer and spend a few months with the club instructor".

I built stick and tissue FF kits as a kid in the 1970's and re-discovered the hobby a few years ago when I purchased a "foamie" 3-channel airplane. I learned building tips and got flying tips from (primarily) (Forum Name). I successfully taught myself to fly with this airplane and still have it. I went on to rediscover my love of building and now I consider myself having a foot in the old school and one in the new: all of my airplanes are small, parkflyer sized, and electric. But the majority of them I built myself using old-school techniques from kits, from plans and also scratch. I learned almost all of these techniques from the forums on (Forum Name), primarily the Electric Scale Forums. My latest projects include a scratch-built 1/12 scale 4 channel 1927 Swallow Biplane and a 24" WS 3 channel SE5a biplane, built from the Peter Rake plans. I have made over 900 posts on (Forum Name), some of which I'm sure were quite wrong or ill-advised, and many of which I’d like to think were very helpful and possibly even insightful. I am a member of AMA and the local club. The people in the local club are great but none of them are into what I am into, which is small, electric, scale models. Without the web community, specifically (Forum Name), I am fairly certain that I would not have this hobby today, would not be a member of the AMA, and of course would not subscribe to your magazine.

Be careful how your columnists treat the web community! We are the future of the hobby and even now we vastly outnumber the traditional club communities. Your Park Flyer program is admirable in trying to address us but I'm not sure it's enough. I will leave you with this question: What are YOUR plans for a greater web-based presence? If you are not sure, then good luck to you, because you will need it!

Regards,

Phil Burress
AMA 781384
Wichita, Kansas"

quote:

ORIGINAL: 50%plane



There are a lot of webcrawlers(including me at one time), however, the internet can be a useful tool. In this day and age, for an organization, or a person representing an organization, to bemoan the internet, or it's users, is, well, stupid.

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

quote:

ORIGINAL: 50%plane



There are a lot of webcrawlers(including me at one time), however, the internet can be a useful tool. In this day and age, for an organization, or a person representing an organization, to bemoan the internet, or it's users, is, well, stupid.

fitycent

I know you will probably disagree but I think this one went right over your head. I guess I’ll have to inform you that you are still a WebCrawler...and as such you have been equated as a bottom feeder by whoever titled the article in question “Web crawlers and other bottom feeders”.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 50%plane

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

quote:

ORIGINAL: 50%plane
There are a lot of webcrawlers(including me at one time), however, the internet can be a useful tool. In this day and age, for an organization, or a person representing an organization, to bemoan the internet, or it's users, is, well, stupid.

fitycent
I know you will probably disagree but I think this one went right over your head. I guess I’ll have to inform you that you are still a WebCrawler...and as such you have been equated as a bottom feeder by whoever titled the article in question “Web crawlers and other bottom feeders”.

Do you just argue pointlessly because you have no life, or are you just trying to rack up post?
go back, re-read what I wrote. I made it clear where I agreed with the letter, and where I disagreed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: 50%plane





Do you just argue pointlessly because you have no life, or are you just trying to rack up post?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kid chuckles

I think what he was getting at is your still posting. No matter what the content is, if you post your labeled a web crawler and bottom feeder. Greg did not say a word about all the good stuff that is posted. <snip>............... That is what i am adement about the disregard for the good stuff that goes on in here. Like RC Ken and Minn Flyer trying to help out everybody and there new idea is great for begginers. Has he said wtg guys your doing a great job to them are or they bottom feeders and web crawlers also.

quote:

Now let us look at the non-supported daily hobbyist and sport flier that competes in the supposedly amateur ( amateur used as: "2: one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession ) classes of competition; He/she is there for the enjoyment of the activity, however is generally going to be bashed by those that are well supported by the industry. IMO, these amateurs are the true CHAMPIONS!