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Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 5:14 AM   
dasintex



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From: Belton, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Down here in Texas we oftern have County Imposed Burn Bans; some clubs elect to restrict the the operation of Turbines during these burn bans, with the reasoning being of the perception of the increase in fire danger in the event of the crash or operation of Turbines; I am curious if this is a widespread practice of most clubs throughout the country that experience Burn Bans, also, do you think this perception of increase in fire danger is valid?

Thanks.

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 5:27 AM   
jetflyr


 

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ORIGINAL: dasintex

Down here in Texas we oftern have County Imposed Burn Bans; some clubs elect to restrict the the operation of Turbines during these burn bans, with the reasoning being of the perception of the increase in fire danger in the event of the crash or operation of Turbines; I am curious if this is a widespread practice of most clubs throughout the country that experience Burn Bans, also, do you think this perception of increase in fire danger is valid?

Thanks.


Here along the windy, and dry, Front Range of Colorado, we seem to self-limit ourselves during "red flag" and burn bans. Subsiquently, the clubs seem to let us police ourselves... and we have not had issues with a large grass fire..... and the resulting media blasting that it would entail.
Remember... right or not, the media doesn't care....it's just another "rich boy's toy" causing a public problem.
Do we need the additional headaches?

(That's when paint-stirrers on the pointy noses of our airplanes come in handy )
Greg


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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 5:53 AM   
seanreit



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ORIGINAL: jetflyr

and the resulting media blasting that it would entail.



Greg, since this has been put out in the open, let me describe my position in detail, and I will do it over several posts to make clear what my position is, right wrong or indifferent. It won't be a surprise to most of you, I am the root cause of this thread.

Part of the problem I am having is someone of "stature" makes an unfounded remark. You say the "Resulting media blast" with no proof that that would happen. Or even could happen. My local field has made a bunch of unfounded remarks. I'll continue more over the next hour with all the history here, and maybe the court of public opinion will at least have my position and the others opinion as best as I know them.

< Message edited by seanreit -- 3/31/2008 7:51 AM >

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 5:58 AM   
seanreit



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Status: offline 		Two years ago at our local field on new years day there was a burn ban in Travis county Texas (our field is in Travis county). I showed up to maiden a friends jet that day that we had worked on over the Christmas holiday. I was stunned to find Steve and Dawn Ellzey and Bob Covish had taken the position that since there was a county burn ban, they were volunteering not to fly turbines during the county burn ban. Even though to my knowledge this has never been a issue before, I had flown during burn bans many many times!

I simply said that "I don't volunteer". And while I'm starting my engine, a club officer named Dick Maus came over to the fence demanding my attention. So while the engine is running, I'm turning to answer what ever concerns he had (something along the line of I should not fly). Why pull my attention away from a running airplane?? Which, I'm not sure why anyone would have concern over what I'm doing cause I'm not breaking ANY RULES AT ALL. More on that next post. And if y'all would give me some time here I'll spell it out really well, and then if blasting me is necessary, by all means, if that is part of the solution, I welcome it.

< Message edited by seanreit -- 3/31/2008 7:52 AM >

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 5:58 AM   
bob1393



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Status: offline 		Our club - here in the pacific northwest (Wash.) - does not fly turbines when there is a burn ban in effect.

Bob

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 6:01 AM   
seanreit



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From: Cedar Park, TX, USA
Status: offline 		So again, I was a little upset I had to divert my attention, but went on about my business and in the spirit of cooperation, I did not fly. However, I did make it vocal that I did not agree that the burn ban applied to us. In fact later I called the local fire marshal up, and told him what we did, and I copied what the burn ban states here:



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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 6:01 AM   
rorrock


 

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From: KaleenACT, AUSTRALIA
Status: offline 		Down under the M.A.A.A (our AMA) has it stated in the turbine regs that there is no flying in area affected by a total fire ban (same as a burn ban i would imagine)

Rob

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 6:04 AM   
seanreit



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From: Cedar Park, TX, USA
Status: offline 		Again, this does not apply to us, and the fire marshall said this. I asked what would happen if there was a crash and resultant fire and the fire marshall told me that it would be "My responsibility for any resultant damage". I said would that be any different from any other time I fly this type of airplane and he said no, although during a burn ban the fines might be higher if there were any.

Well, guess what folks, I'm already responsibly for any of my actions. So are every one of you who fly prop planes, but we'll get to that later.

In the mean time, it is suggested by a local turbine flyer Bob Covish at the next club meeting that there should be a club rule voted on at the next meeting whereby during a burn ban, no turbines shall fly at my local field.

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 6:08 AM   
seanreit



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Status: offline 		About two weeks later, sometime in January, I go to another central texas field (bomber field) and we fly jets all weekend. On Sunday on the way back, I'm talking to a friend of mine who tells me he is on the Fire Marshall site for Travis county and the burn ban has been lifted.

So I swing by my local field to get a couple of flights in.

After a flight, another club officer named Lloyd Liggon comes towards me screaming and waving his finger in my face telling me that I can't fly, there is a ban on turbine flights.

I calmly tell him that the ban has been lifted, and he tells me that just because Travis county lifted the burn ban does not mean that the field has. And I asked him point blank, had the bylaws changed and outlawed turbines and he told me YES.

This was a total and complete lie. However, at the next club meeting with 14 votes, the rule was ratified.

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 6:11 AM   
seanreit



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Status: offline 		Flash forward two years, and Travis county has been in more burn bans than ever in history. About 8 months out of the year. I get fed up with the club having this rule and after a jack and coke, I send an email to the president of the club saying that if the rule is not rescinded I will make every effort I can to get the club closed.

Our club is actually on County Park Land, and there are many activities that I documented in this email to the president of our club that the county parks department might not want going on out there. Whether I would be successful or not, who knows.

A BS move? Again, please wait for the rest of the story and make your own minds up.

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 6:16 AM   
seanreit



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Status: offline 		In my mind, I do a lot to promote jets, and promote the hobby for everyone. I'm not happy that our club would take such an entrenched postion on the jet pilots flying, and I have many reasons.

Number one is probably proficiency. If we don't practice what we do, we are worst over time and might not should be flying these types of aircraft.

Other fields in the central texas area have followed austin's lead on this issue. Waco had never had a "Turbine burn ban" but the scuttlebut on it from Austin club members had them put the rule in place. Gee thanks guys.

Anyway, we are losing the ability to fly jets when we want, and on behalf of jet pilots in this area, this field is worthless to me, if I can't fly there, and the club members supportive of the ban, they aren't losing anything by voting to continue the ban.

The president of Arca invited an informal meeting to discuss the issue last wed. Boy did I prepare.

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 6:19 AM   
seanreit



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Status: offline 		I came to the meeting with the AMA turbine safety docs, copy of the county burn ban, evidence of claims against the AMA, evidence of studies the JPO had done about what percent of turbine crashes actually result in a fire. I had evidence that prop planes can cause grass fires.

I had evidence that prop planes can kill people, and that they have. I had evidence that in one form or another any of these activites can result in a "Doomsday Scenerio".

When we submitted all these facts, we were told they meant nothing, that if the rule was to be changed, we would have to submited a motion to change the rule.

So the next night I went to the meeting to submit a change to the club rules.

www.austinrc.org

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 6:22 AM   
seanreit



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Status: offline 		When I got to the club meeting, the first thing I noticed was that a guy named "Phil" got in my face and asked me if I was the M'fer that wrote that email.

I said I was, and I honestly thought he was going to assault me.

When we suggested the proposed rule change, the entire room got very agressive. It was clear to me that since this issue did not affect them, they were just going to vote against us.

When we suggested all the facts that we had, we were told that they weren't going to listen to any "statistics".

Even the president of our club would only allow the discussion to revolve around "Doomsday". It was so clear that he did not want the rule change.

They are not looking to work with us, in fact, the president of our club contacted the AMA to see if there was anything the AMA could do to support their position.

The AMA has no position on burn bans.

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 6:25 AM   
seanreit



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Status: offline 		So in my infinite wisdom I started thinking if this issue does not affect everyone, maybe the club should see how it does affect them. If they are not going to make an effort to resolve this, I have noticed that there is a public outcry on this issue,

BUT THERE IS NO PUBLIC OUTCRY over the issue that our club has no county health code sticker's indicating that our concession stand is in compliance.

So I send a link to the club president with the county health codes compliance lists and ask him to call me.

He never did.

So when our burger flipper goes number two, guess what? Well, I'll leave that to your imaginations.

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 6:31 AM   
seanreit



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Status: offline 		I don't really care what the rest of the country is doing on this issue, be it voluntary, or be it police ourselves.

As long as I am an AMA member, following the AMA rules, following the club rules, etc. There is no reason for this club to have enacted this rule, when clearly it does not apply to us.

There have only ever been 5 fires at our club due to turbines.

Four of those were during a jet event. The fifth was by a novice turbine pilot who screwed up got his jet too slow and it was on the Sunday after hours of a jet event weekend.

There has never been a fire on a normal just go to the field and fly day.

I have flown a thousand flights at this field. Never crashed one of my jets there.

Others have too.

I have been standing in the pits and had a prop plane crash 5 feet from me. But somehow what I do is more dangerous.

When I suggested that a fire from a turbine crash was no more a liability than running a prop plane into a little girl, I was basically told my position had no merit.

I am sincerely discouraged that the officers of my club are not backing the jet guys with our steller record, and while the local 4h club comes to our field, I get called to come do a turbine demo.

When the local news wants to do a story, I do a flight on a foggy morning and people come and spend money at our field.

I do a news story the next year and people come.

And then we are treated like second rate citizens, when what we do brings more money to the field than anything else.

It is a sad state of affairs and if it does not stop here, where will it stop?

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 6:33 AM   
seanreit



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Status: offline 		I suggest that all ARCA members think about this vote carefully, cause as is well known on this site, I have the means, the willpower, and the time to make their decisions have some sort of consequence. They might have thought this does not effect them, but it will.

And now I've said my peace. Right wrong or indifferent.

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 6:35 AM   
Kevin_W


 

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Status: offline 		So as I read it Sean, you are unhappy with the club's rule banning turbines during a burn ban so you have decided to blackmail them with threats of having the field closed for everyone.
So basically if you can't fly at the club field during burn bans, then nobody will be able to fly there?
Is that what you are saying?

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 6:40 AM   
seanreit



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Status: offline 		One thing I am considering is paying for AmA membership for a bunch of people and then paying for them to be club members and then voting a whole slew of rule changes including if I keep getting messed with, I will hire enough votes to vote officer changes within the club.

I sure hope they don't force me to go this far, but as history's lesson with me, what they have done does not work for me and change is needed.

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 6:41 AM   
seanreit



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Status: offline 		Kevin, it is discrimination. And is actually a liablity to the club. But yes, the club is not entitled to discriminate against members because of the type of airplane they fly.

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 6:46 AM   
Kevin_W


 

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ORIGINAL: seanreit

Kevin, it is discrimination. And is actually a liablity to the club. But yes, the club is not entitled to discriminate against members because of the type of airplane they fly.

So you are blackmailing the club then?

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 6:49 AM   
seanreit



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Status: offline 		No, I would not use the word blackmail. What I am saying if the rules do not change, I might file a class action lawsuit.

This is not blackmail anymore than me telling you if you hit my car with your car, I might sue you.

It's just a statement with consequences. You used the word blackmail. I don't think that applies.

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 6:58 AM   
mugenkidd



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Status: offline 		damn Sean... you a gangsta!!!! buying votes that's some good old mafia type stuff..... well that sounds cooler than lobbiest anyway.

I think that a lot of this has to do with ignorance, and there is really no way to change peoples minds even if you do present intelligent facts. Heck giant scale 3D and lipo batteries are bigger threats if you ask me.


Only thing I would suggest is to be careful at how you go about this, once bridges are burned they are hard to rebuild... maybe you should go to the club with some kind of extra safety measures that would allow you to fly during a burn bad....ie extra fire extinguisher, at least "X" number of people present..... or some other means of creating a peaceful solution. Your ideas may work but to me it seems like you'll make a lot of enemies, which is never a good thing.

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 7:05 AM   
seanreit



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ORIGINAL: mugenkidd
go to the club with some kind of extra safety measures that would allow you to fly during a burn bad....ie extra fire extinguisher, at least "X" number of people present..... or some other means of creating a peaceful solution.



I'll tell you exactly why, because those "extra measures" could give a false sense of security.

If a jet crashes and causes a fire, it is by definition an emergency. The AMA dictates that we shall have a BC rated fire extinguisher and a water can on the premise. This is so if there is some immediately containable fire, we have the tools there to deal with it.

If there is some other measure, we might not act in such a way as to get help when help is needed. What if I go lugging these extra measures and it gets too out of hand, now i'm not near the phone dialing 911 AS WRITTEN BY THE AMA!

The officers had not even read these documents, we had to read them to the club at the meeting.

And still it meant nothing. Apparently.

Rather than educate, they are living as if this doomsday scenerio is going to happen. They would rather argue than talk about the facts.

I don't understand this.

The AMA rules do not dictate that we must "fight" the fire. What if I die while trying to put a fire out cause the AMA rules said I had to fight it? Liablity??



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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 7:12 AM   
seanreit



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Status: offline 		And what's a guy in a wheel chair supposed to do?

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RE: Turbine Restrictions during Burn Bans - 3/31/2008 7:25 AM   
mugenkidd



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ORIGINAL: seanreit

I'll tell you exactly why, because those "extra measures" could give a false sense of security.




Man, I hate to break it to you, but we live in a world that revolves around a false sense of security....but that's what the people want. Heck go to an international airport post 9/11... think all that extra security crap is going to stop some one with an RPG from taking an airplane down at the end of the runway... heck no... my point is no matter how right you are I think it'll be better in the long run not to get your point over by causing a war with your club. Trust me man, I think you are in the right, but I really think your methods may end up hurting you in the long run.

but that's just my 2 cents, if that's what you decide to do more power to you and I wish you the best.....Lord knows not trying to get on your bad side

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