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reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/1/2008 10:09 PM   
MetallicaJunkie



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Status: offline 		My brother has a 33% SD models extra 260, and we feel the the motor box and firewall are going to need reinforcing to meet our flying style demands.

What ounce weight of carbon fiber cloth is needed, and what is a good website to buy small quantities at a reasonable price?

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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/1/2008 10:59 PM   
Tired Old Man


 

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Status: offline 		8-12 ounce unidirectional.

Try http://www.fiberglasssupply.com in Bingen, Washington. I don't know their minimum quantities but the owner will work with people. It's worth taking a look. Bear in mind that carbon is not cheap.

Oh darn. Looks like he changed locations. Now I can't just walk next door for stuff when I'm at the office anymore

< Message edited by Pat Roy -- 4/1/2008 11:01 PM >

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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/1/2008 11:27 PM   
MetallicaJunkie



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Status: offline 		thanks pat, i found another nice company while browsing here at work... http://www.uscomposites.com/carbonpage.html




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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 12:17 AM   
sensei



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Status: offline 		For just a fraction of the cost you could use balsa tri stock and thin CA and you would get the same results.
Just food for thought.

Bob

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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 12:41 AM   
pe reivers



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Status: offline 		hmm... not quite in the same league. Balsa shear force is very low. The motor box has to transmit all torque vibrations through the fuselage to the wings that act as a balancer. With larger engines, balsa just won't cut it any more.
In 100% aircraft, Balsa is used for filler blocks, not for contruction main parts. There is a reason for that. Light ply too is suspect in larger planes. The glue interface to the fuselage is no stronger than the weakest link, which is the wood.
With carbon reinforcement, the carbon will take ALL loads, and should be dimensioned as such. This is due to the large difference in strain properties, know as young's modulus. Before the wood is anywhere near decent load bearing strains, the carbon is at it's strain limits. This should be considered with carbon reinforcing.

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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 2:52 AM   
Tired Old Man


 

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Status: offline 		One other item to keep in mind. The engine pulls, and does not push unless you have a tail mounted engine. Reinforcing the outside of the box does more than working the inside. If you wet the carbon well and lay it up using vacuum bagging or pressure from another source to have it tight to the wood the stuff is stonger than steel for a minimal weight penalty. It sets ultra thin per layer when laid up tight. More epoxy than needed to fully wet the carbon is only excess weight when it dries and provides no additional strength.

If you are needing to do lap joints, think "tree" and it's branches. That's probably the strongest joint made in nature and if you overlap wet carbon layers similar to the joint between a tree trunk and a branch you will end up with a formidable lap joint.

< Message edited by Pat Roy -- 4/2/2008 5:27 AM >

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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 4:08 AM   
as722


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MetallicaJunkie

My brother has a 33% SD models extra 260, and we feel the the motor box and firewall are going to need reinforcing to meet our flying style demands.

What ounce weight of carbon fiber cloth is needed, and what is a good website to buy small quantities at a reasonable price?



What kind of "flying style demands" will you put that 260 through to need carbon fiber cloth on the firewall ? Hard landings ?


Albert

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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 5:23 AM   
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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 5:29 AM   
Tired Old Man


 

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Status: offline 		Just for informational purposes, the 35% SD Katana firewall without any extra help handles a BME 115 with no problems. The SD planes are pretty well made over all. Perhaps some fit issues here and there but not weak by any account.

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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 5:46 AM   
sensei



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quote:

ORIGINAL: pe reivers

hmm... not quite in the same league. Balsa shear force is very low. The motor box has to transmit all torque vibrations through the fuselage to the wings that act as a balancer. With larger engines, balsa just won't cut it any more.
In 100% aircraft, Balsa is used for filler blocks, not for contruction main parts. There is a reason for that. Light ply too is suspect in larger planes. The glue interface to the fuselage is no stronger than the weakest link, which is the wood.
With carbon reinforcement, the carbon will take ALL loads, and should be dimensioned as such. This is due to the large difference in strain properties, know as young's modulus. Before the wood is anywhere near decent load bearing strains, the carbon is at it's strain limits. This should be considered with carbon reinforcing.


This is a nice story... (LOL) like I said, balsa tri stock will do the job just fine.

Bob


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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 6:28 AM   
bzrogers



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Status: offline 		Tri-Stock works fine on all my 40%ers with a DA-150!

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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 7:03 AM   
mikec3d


 

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Status: offline 		How about these...they work just fine....

1. 40% Carden 260
2. 40% SD Models Yak 54

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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 7:05 AM   
Tired Old Man


 

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Status: offline 		Pe's illustration implies that balsa will be stronger than carbon at the end of the paragraph. Sorry, but I have to dispute that. I fly 40 pound carbon airframes and no part of them would carry the load of another part if made from balsa of any type. The only component that could come close to carrying some of the wing loads would be of metal.

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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 7:17 AM   
3DAP


 

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Status: offline 		Most light weight army uavs are made from carbon fibre not balsa. Check out Air and Space and see what they are using carbon for. Also balsa may not prevent twist like mentioned before. Some of these guys have a lot more exp than other wise given credit for. Go far the Carbon or at least fibre glass. this stuff really strengthens joints or people would not be telling to use it.

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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 7:43 AM   
mikec3d


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The glue interface to the fuselage is no stronger than the weakest link, which is the wood.


What would you epoxy the CF cloth to????
I guess since the vibrations are tranfered through the motor box to the wing tubes, then that all needs to be reinforced also, since it is all glued WOOD.

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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 9:18 AM   
MetallicaJunkie



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quote:

ORIGINAL: as722


quote:

ORIGINAL: MetallicaJunkie

My brother has a 33% SD models extra 260, and we feel the the motor box and firewall are going to need reinforcing to meet our flying style demands.

What ounce weight of carbon fiber cloth is needed, and what is a good website to buy small quantities at a reasonable price?



What kind of "flying style demands" will you put that 260 through to need carbon fiber cloth on the firewall ? Hard landings ?


Albert



no, just hard, wild, throwing the sticks type flying not necessarily 3d.... if i ever get concerned about hard landings, ill make a different thread

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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 9:22 AM   
Tired Old Man


 

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Status: offline 		I suppose I could say something about the length of the carbon weave extending back over a wood component. Longer moves the stress point accordingly, and long enough moves the stress point perhaps to another bulkhead which adds considerable "carry" to the other end. Or perhaps laminating back to a wood doubler which would pick up more torsional strength. You won't care if the wood breaks under the carbon because the carbon would continue to carry the load.

I have to agree that in most cases a simple piece of balsa tri stock effectively strengthens the firewall to fuselage joint, but what do you do if you think both the firewall and the sides it's attached to are too weak. Just adding a ply doubler inside the firewall will do nothing for the sides, right? Now there may be some grumbling about the weight of the carbon. No worries. That 8 ounce carbon is the weight for a square yard, and correctly planned an entire motor box covered in carbon should come in around 2.5 ounces or less after completion.

Don't limit your thinking to a single point.

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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 4:39 PM   
sensei



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Status: offline 		Guys,

What I stated was; balsa tri stock properly bonded in the corners of the motor box of a built up airframe is cost effective and strong enough to carry any flight loads you could induce upon it, it's that simple.

Bob



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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 5:06 PM   
bzrogers



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Status: offline 		How did a discussion about a 35% Yak turn into an argument about 40lb airplane?



This is rediculous.

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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 5:09 PM   
sensei



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quote:

ORIGINAL: 3DAP

Most light weight army uavs are made from carbon fibre not balsa. Check out Air and Space and see what they are using carbon for. Also balsa may not prevent twist like mentioned before. Some of these guys have a lot more exp than other wise given credit for. Go far the Carbon or at least fibre glass. this stuff really strengthens joints or people would not be telling to use it.


I think I will check out the Air & Space mag. so I can learn about composites...

Bob

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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 9:33 PM   
Matt_McCarty


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sensei


quote:

ORIGINAL: 3DAP

Most light weight army uavs are made from carbon fibre not balsa. Check out Air and Space and see what they are using carbon for. Also balsa may not prevent twist like mentioned before. Some of these guys have a lot more exp than other wise given credit for. Go far the Carbon or at least fibre glass. this stuff really strengthens joints or people would not be telling to use it.


I think I will check out the Air & Space mag. so I can learn about composites...

Bob

LOL!.....guys his name is sensei for a reason......the balsa tri will work just fine.

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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 9:44 PM   
MetallicaJunkie



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quote:

ORIGINAL: T. Bob

quote:

just hard, wild, throwing the sticks type flying not necessarily 3d....



We gotta stick jammer here.



So what bobby?

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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/2/2008 11:51 PM   
as722


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MetallicaJunkie


quote:

ORIGINAL: as722


quote:

ORIGINAL: MetallicaJunkie

My brother has a 33% SD models extra 260, and we feel the the motor box and firewall are going to need reinforcing to meet our flying style demands.

What ounce weight of carbon fiber cloth is needed, and what is a good website to buy small quantities at a reasonable price?



What kind of "flying style demands" will you put that 260 through to need carbon fiber cloth on the firewall ? Hard landings ?


Albert



no, just hard, wild, throwing the sticks type flying not necessarily 3d.... if i ever get concerned about hard landings, ill make a different thread



Now that I know we're dealing with wild throwing the sticks type flying but not necesarily 3d I would definetely wrap the entire engine box with carbon fiber cloth. Good luck with your plane.


Albert


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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/3/2008 1:15 AM   
Hooked-On-RC



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Status: offline 		Metallica,
I am not sure what kind of pilot you are or how you fly your panes, but let me reassure you that an engine box reinforced with tri stock made of balsa or spruce, will handle pretty much everything you could throw at it...IF it is done correctly. The addition of carbon fiber or fiberglass is added weight and not really necessary...an insurance policy perhaps, but not really necessary.


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RE: reinforcing motorbox/firewall - 4/3/2008 1:53 AM   
Tired Old Man


 

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Status: offline 		I tend to agree. What I don't agree with is reinforcing the inside of the engine box. As I stated before, the load is outwards, not inwards. If you didn't have a ply overhang on the outside of the firewall to fill with some tri stcok a couple of small (3/4" x3/4" x3") pieces of aluminum 90 degree angle bolted on the outside would be better than adding a bunch of wood inside. It used to be a pretty common method of setting engine boxes before arfs were the rage. You could do the same at the engine box to forward fuselage bulkhead if you truly thoght you needed it.

More than one way to do the job, but all of the better ways will be done at the outside of the box. Think about that and the stress forces a little before debating it. All you have working for you on the inside is the strength of the glue. The balsa does nothing.

However you decide to fly YOUR plane, enjoy to the best of your ability. The other guys won't be there to help build or fly, so do however you want to and have fun.

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