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My knowledge of airfoils. - 4/4/2008 1:50:22 AM   
cyclops2


 

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I know all about flat bottomed Clark Y's.
They work for me in scratch built planes everytime.

Rich
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RE: My knowledge of airfoils. - 4/4/2008 2:39:18 AM   
BMatthews



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Ah... but not all flat bottom airfoils are truly Clark Y's. Many of them on all sorts of model designs, both successful as well as forgotten, have more in common with the outsole curve of a size 10 Florsheim than a true Clark Y.


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RE: My knowledge of airfoils. - 4/4/2008 4:12:03 AM   
dick Hanson



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I can't resist
True story - Old friend worked at Convair - The airfoils were done from the eyeball of asharp guy and his ships curves
Most airfoils were simply nice lines which fall within structural requirements and smooth things .
Get your structure right and the airfoil will follow . I don't expect some true believers will accept this
so be it

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RE: My knowledge of airfoils. - 4/4/2008 4:58:30 AM   
proptop



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There's an older guy in our club...Red Tyler...been building and flying since the 30's...scratch built many great flying airplanes, and uses ships curves for his TLAR airfoils...

Dick...Joe Valvo says say "Hi" to you for him...

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RE: My knowledge of airfoils. - 4/4/2008 11:58:53 AM   
da Rock



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Your knowledge will take you as far as you're going to go.

Some years ago, I flew cross country gliders. Darned if any one of them that got out of sight of the launch field had a Clark Y or a shoe-sole airfoil. None of them had flatplate airfoils. Would a flatplate or Clark-Y have been a winner? Who knows. The guys who thought plates or Clark-Y's would have won didn't enter the races. Or maybe they did. I got to know everyone who was any competition at all. And wasn't a one in that bunch.

I flew rat racers and Goodyear racers for a buddy for years and years. A few of his first planes had flat bottoms. We never made the finals ever the first year or so. After that sorta dismal start, we began to do everything "better". Even read up on low drag airfoils. And started making finals. Was it better engines or less drag or slicker shapes. Guys did just sand an airfoil into the wood (solid wings stand up better over many, many pit stops), but I never saw a single guy who left it flatplate or flat bottom. Until we got away from flat anything we didn't make finals. After we started streamlining almost everything we had more than a year of experience. So when we started making finals, it could have been other things that helped. But flat bottoms didn't help, nor did clark y's. Guys who race are guys who want to win. I never met one who chose a Clark-Y or flatplate to improve his speed.

Goodyear plyon used to be huge. Screaming 40s and gorgeous models. Clark-Y's? Flatplate wings? Nope. Nope. Those guys would have gone to almost any length to win.

There is a place for most things. Just because something has a place doesn't mean it fits everywhere.

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RE: My knowledge of airfoils. - 4/4/2008 12:03:30 PM   
da Rock



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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyclops2



I know all about flat bottomed Clark Y's.
They work for me in scratch built planes everytime.

Rich



That's got to be proof again that, "if the shoe fits, wear it".

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RE: My knowledge of airfoils. - 4/4/2008 1:13:34 PM   
dick Hanson



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Knowing when and how to use differing shapes is elemental in wing design
Curves were needed to blend strength required in wings
Also the curves were shaped as needed to get best lift over drag for specific purposes
Elementary Dr Watson
-Flat plates are extremely effective when weight , strength and wing loading fit the application
To off handedly dismiss and poo poo them is simply to ignore the practicality they offer in many cases for our models .
Structurally they are no good on full scale unles external bracing is used -then they are excellent - note tail groups on many full scale aerobats and general av types. Curved flat plates are very good on full scale light weight craft
Some brothers in Dayton trying to fly a woefully underpowerd kite showed that the application was fine
Bottom line here- If you have not actually used the various types of flat surface setups and figured out where and how they work - do not be quick to scoffand dismiss them as simply the attempts of the under educated .
Sorry I can't supply books to back this up - FWIW- I have never advocated replacing other older,well known proven shapes with flat wings
That presumption is simply a leap of thought by some to satisfy their own concepts of what works..
I simply have stated that in applications I have been flying ,these are extremely effective.

< Message edited by dick Hanson -- 4/4/2008 1:26:52 PM >


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RE: My knowledge of airfoils. - 4/4/2008 2:48:32 PM   
cyclops2


 

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I am laughing.

I posted this to show how happy a simple sport scale builder can be with 1 airfoil for all occasions.

To really believe that 1 airfoil can do most every requirement, is to believe 1 aspect ratio of a wing can do most lifting & speed requirements.

I will post my favorite aspect ratio when this thread dies.

I am surprised the anti trolls did not take my head off on this post

Rich

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RE: My knowledge of airfoils. - 4/4/2008 4:35:49 PM   
da Rock



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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyclops2



I am laughing.

I posted this to show how happy a simple sport scale builder can be with 1 airfoil for all occasions.

To really believe that 1 airfoil can do most every requirement, is to believe 1 aspect ratio of a wing can do most lifting & speed requirements.

I will post my favorite aspect ratio when this thread dies.

I am surprised the anti trolls did not take my head off on this post

Rich



It is nice to know why you posted what you did.

Especially since exactly the same kind of sentiment just blew up a really decent thread that was just asking if there were any good books on aero around. It really looked like all you were trying to do was stir up the same people again. And darned it that isn't exactly what happened.

Good thing there is virtually infinite space on forums.

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RE: My knowledge of airfoils. - 4/4/2008 4:42:31 PM   
da Rock



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BTW, what is your favorite A/R? And if you would, please tell us why so the answering posts will develop in the intended direction.

Any post about aero is kewl. It's the posts about other posters that ain't. And if you notice, this thread doesn't have any posts with opinions of others, other than post #8. And that one was so indirect that the RCU virtual infinite space can stand to absorb it.

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RE: My knowledge of airfoils. - 4/4/2008 5:55:59 PM   
BMatthews



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Dick, I have no doubt at all that many airfoils came off a set of ships curves. But I suspect that like the ones I used to make up either freehand or with french curves to achieve TLAR that some background on shape was also behind the fellow's design. And of course of full sized stuff that airfoil would then be stuck into a wind tunnel to test it. And that testing is the key.

NACA 4 digit series airfoils all come from the misguided idea that math can form a shape that the air likes. The "envelope" they finally came up with in the 00xx shape finally produced a shape that the air happened to like. From there they added camber to get all the various airfoils to suit the tasks and performance was confirmed in the wind tunnels.

Back in your early pattern days the designers did much the same thing. High points and thickness and leading edge radii were adjusted without a care for the air other than in COMPARISON TO THE LAST MODEL in order to enhance one aspect or another. Now there's certainly nothing wrong with iterative research. Mother nature has done it for millenia and we are the result. And as the flight task changed we found the airfoils needed to change along with them. Hence we find that, like a butterfly or bumble bee, we are down to the flat foamies now where the reynolds number. wing loading, and thus lift requirement, and, just as importantly, the flight tasks are such that flat plate airfoils work very well. More interative research that finally produced a model that flies in a particular manner the way the designer wants.

But I would never think of putting a flat plate on a pylon racer and I'm sure neither would you. In the straights it would work nice with a little leading edge shaping and trailing edge taper but in the high G turns the extra shape of the more typical airfoil for that style of plane will result in the higher lift with reasonable drag for that task.

Note I didn't say "proper airfoil". As you've pointed out flat foils are valid and quite proper. It's just that for so long a flat plate has been used to demonstrate all the "bad" things that "proper" airfoils can avoid. The difference now being that the flat foamies are putting those "bad" charactaristics to use and turning "problems" into "advantages". It's funny but a perfect example of this same iterative development. Look at the stick style fun fly models of some 10 to 15 years ago that invariably had those really thick 25 to 20% airfoils. Somewhere along the way along the way some designers went with ever thinner airfoils until someone decided "we may as well just make it a flat plate". Either that or someone out there that was REALLY lazy side stepped the process and produced a mutant that jumped directly to the flat plate. I would not be surprised if the introduction of Depron had a lot to do with that possible mutant formation. A mutant that obviously survived and flourished as it does just what so many flyers want it to do.

The funny thing is that if you think about it the flat plates are not really flat plates. With the size of the control surface portions they are actually more of a "very thin variable camber" airfoil with a V shaped camber line. Only at specific moments do they happen by accident to be running with a 0% camber.


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RE: My knowledge of airfoils. - 4/4/2008 5:59:31 PM   
cyclops2


 

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Here they are.

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RE: My knowledge of airfoils. - 4/4/2008 6:13:13 PM   
cyclops2


 

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As a side note on the China Clipper. I had heard about how power hungry boats can be. So I decided to make the horozontial stabilizer a 200 % Clark Y. I can lightly hand toss it in calm air and steer it for 3 seconds. It is a joy to run along side of it on final approach. What stall speed.

Lift off is slow and flat. Probably like if it had full flaps. It is so darn forgiving of a stall. No dropping of a wing. It just starts to settle faster & faster. Neat.

Rich


< Message edited by cyclops2 -- 4/4/2008 6:14:26 PM >

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RE: My knowledge of airfoils. - 4/4/2008 10:13:46 PM   
Tall Paul



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If the leading edge is truly sharp and the bottom line runs directly to the trailing, -then- you have a "flat bottom" airfoil, which a Clark-Y isn't.
Round that leading edge just a tad, and it's no longer "flat", as this Aquila airfoil is.
Real airplanes got away from true flat bottom 'long 'bout 1912.

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RE: My knowledge of airfoils. - 4/4/2008 11:26:11 PM   
da Rock