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Dihedral - 4/6/2008 8:31:01 PM   
gaRCfield


 

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I was just wondering about dihedral. I understand that it makes the plane have 'self-righting characteristics' and is used extensively on trainers. What about negative dihedral? I saw a plane at the airport the other day - it was a huge, high-wing cargo plane (military), and the wings seemed to have the opposite of dihedral, where they were higher at the center and pitched down. How would this affect flying, and how does dihedral work in the first place?

What I'm guessing is that the lower the body of the plane hangs below the wings, there is a larger moment created by gravity pulling down on the plane about the axis, which I guess would be through the point there the wings are joined to the plane. Maybe with the reverse pitched dihedral there is a cancellation of the self-righting/moment for the big, heavy plane, so it is a little more nimble???

What do I know.


< Message edited by FatOrangeKat -- 4/6/2008 9:00:42 PM >


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RE: Dihedral - 4/6/2008 11:09:06 PM   
BMatthews



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The drooping angle is called anhedral. As you would expect it has a destabilizing effect. You'd need to personally talk to the designers but on the big military cargo planes I believe it was done to counter some of the high amount of stability provided by the combination of the high mounted wing and the sweep angle. Another thought is that by drooping the wings slightly you lower the lift center more towards the true CG of the load itself so the "pendulum" effect of the heavy load doesn't have as much effect when climbing or diving. But that's just a guess on my part.


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RE: Dihedral - 4/7/2008 12:00:32 AM   
Nathan King



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As you correctly mentioned, dihedral enhances stability about the longitudinal (roll) axis. When the airplane is rolled the lower wing has a higher angle of attack (more lift) than the high wing which will cause the wings to level back out somewhat by themselves. A negative effect of dihedral is roll coupling.

Anhedral increases maneuverability at the expense of stability. That's why it is commonly seen on military aircraft. Wing sweepback also enhances roll stability, so many airplanes with heavily swept wings will have some anhedral to counter this as BMatthews stated.

P.S. Bruce, I love your "Proudly wasting Balsa" signature.

< Message edited by Nathan King -- 4/7/2008 12:01:57 AM >



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RE: Dihedral - 4/7/2008 1:04:07 AM   
khodges


 

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On those big cargo planes, you'd be surprised how much of the anhedral disappears once the plane is airborne, and all that weight is hanging on the wings. It isn't unusual for the wingtips to flex four to six FEET from their position with the plane on the ground to where they are in flight.

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RE: Dihedral - 4/7/2008 1:18:05 AM   
dick Hanson



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quote:

ORIGINAL: khodges

On those big cargo planes, you'd be surprised how much of the anhedral disappears once the plane is airborne, and all that weight is hanging on the wings. It isn't unusual for the wingtips to flex four to six FEET from their position with the plane on the ground to where they are in flight.

It was done to allow the refuelers to step up onto the wing-----

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RE: Dihedral - 4/7/2008 2:23:56 AM   
Campgems


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nathan King

As you correctly mentioned, dihedral enhances stability about the longitudinal (roll) axis. When the airplane is rolled the lower wing has a higher angle of attack (more lift) than the high wing which will cause the wings to level back out somewhat by themselves. A negative effect of dihedral is roll coupling.



Nathan, how is the angle of attack increased? I was taught that the lift vector dropped as the roll angle of the increased. The lift vector in relation to the wing is constant, but the lift in relation to the horizon drops as the roll angle, or wing pannel angle to the horizon increases. With the dhedrial, one wings angle incrases as the other decreases as the plane rolls, so the low wing will increase it lift vector in relation to the horizon as it levels out in relation to the horizon.

The anhedrial works on the same priciple, but now the high wing is the one increasing in lift vector so the unstability is increased. You are basicly flying inverted in that case.

Correct me if I'm wrong. It wouldn't be the first time, or the last.

Don

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RE: Dihedral - 4/7/2008 2:52:57 AM   
Nathan King



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It's a little hard to see without a demonstration, but I'll give it a try. Imagine an airplane rolling to the left. In this configuration the right wing is producing more lift than the right since the ailerons are changing the camber of both wings differently. As you know, increasing lift always comes with a penalty in the form of increasing drag. This concept of adverse yaw is important since it is causing a right yaw (opposite the turn). This yawing increases the angle of attack on the low wing, effectively creating positive stability about the longitudinal axis. Does this make sense?

Yes, the transports loose some anhedral as the wings take on aerodynamic load. Most still retain some because the sweepback and high wing is effectively creating dihedral. Without adding some anhedral pilots would be fighting the aircraft just to bank it.

P.S. Campgems, are you referring to the "single" lift vector splitting into a horizontal and vertical component in a bank? Yes, the vertical component of lift decreases as bank angle is increased and this explains why elevator (to increase AOA) is needed in turns. I don't see where the components of lift and the horizon comes into play when discussing dihedral. AOA is not a measurement relative to the horizon or ground, but a measurement relative to the angle between the relative wind and the chord line of the wing.


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RE: Dihedral - 4/7/2008 2:59:06 AM   
Campgems


 

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I thought that a sketch may clear up what I was saying.

Attachments
Click to see fullsize image.
Click for fullsize

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RE: Dihedral - 4/7/2008 3:02:17 AM   
da Rock



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The problem with considering the lift vector for reestablishing roll is that roll really has little to do with gravity or the wing's orientation to the earth. The lift of the wing, either side or the whole, has little to do with how level it is in relationship to the earth. That relationship has something to do with how well an unlevel wing carries the load when the wings are not level, but not much with how either side's lift will work to bring the wings back level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihedral

Wikipedia says it pretty clearly. And mentions the common misconception about the lift.

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RE: Dihedral - 4/7/2008 3:08:22 AM   
Nathan King



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quote:

ORIGINAL: da Rock

The problem with considering the lift vector for reestablishing roll is that roll really has little to do with gravity or the wing's orientation to the earth. The lift of the wing, either side or the whole, has little to do with how level it is in relationship to the earth. That relationship has something to do with how well an unlevel wing carries the load when the wings are not level, but not much with how either side's lift will work to bring the wings back level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dihedral

Wikipedia says it pretty clearly. And mentions the common misconception about the lift.


Yeah, that's what I was getting at. I just didn't state it as clearly. Imagine that...

I do take a little issue with completely ruling out lift though. Unless of course, the FAA and CFII's around the country are all wrong.

< Message edited by Nathan King -- 4/7/2008 3:10:31 AM >



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RE: Dihedral - 4/7/2008 3:10:20 AM   
Campgems


 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nathan King

It's a little hard to see without a demonstration, but I'll give it a try. Imagine an airplane rolling to the left. In this configuration the right wing is producing more lift than the right since the ailerons are changing the camber of both wings differently. As you know, increasing lift always comes with a penalty in the form of increasing drag. This concept of adverse yaw is important since it is causing a right yaw (opposite the turn). This yawing increases the angle of attack on the low wing, effectively creating positive stability about the longitudinal axis. Does this make sense?


What you say is true, but that same effect would apply to a flat wing as well as one with a dhideral wouldn't it?


quote:


P.S. Campgems, are you referring to the "single" lift vector splitting into a horizontal and vertical component in a bank? Yes, the vertical component of lift decreases as bank angle is increased and this explains why elevator (to increase AOA) is needed in turns. I don't see where the components of lift and the horizon comes into play when discussing dihedral. AOA is not a measurement relative to the horizon or ground, but a measurement relative to the angle between the relative wind and the chord line of the wing.


The question was related to why dhiedral self righted a plane. AOA has nothing to do with this unless you add controls. That wasn't part of the question though as I see it.
"I don't see where the components of lift and the horizon comes into play when discussing dihedral."
See my chart and see if it doesn't make sense. Remember, we are talking about hands off self corection,

Don


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RE: Dihedral - 4/7/2008 3:14:14 AM   
Nathan King



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Actually, lift does come into play with the Wikipedia explanation, but they just don't spell it out. The upwind wing has a higher AOA... It's a well established fact that increasing AOA increases lift. I was essentially explaining the same thing as the Wikipedia article, but in a slightly different wording.

When I mentioned lift, I didn't mention exposed surface area because, as the article states, it's an illusion. It does come into play when considering the yaw and ensuing sideslip.

Boy, FatOrangeKat you really got more than you bargained for didn't 'ya?

< Message edited by Nathan King -- 4/7/2008 3:19:46 AM >



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RE: Dihedral - 4/7/2008 3:16:40 AM   
B.L.E.


 

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To visualize why there is yaw-roll coupling with dihedral, visualize a wing with extreme dihedral or better yet extreme polyhedral, where the wing has more angle at the tip than the root. Imagine a wing with so much polyhedral that the wing is U-shaped with the wing tips vertical. Now when the plane is yawed, it becomes obvious that one wing tip will have a positive angle of attack and the other will have a negative angle of attack. That also happens to wings that are angled less severely but to a lesser effect.

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RE: Dihedral - 4/7/2008 3:20:40 AM   
Campgems


 

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OK, I'm going to apeal to a higher athority

My flying buddy was once cheif engineer at Mc Dogulas and also taught aeronotics at Cal Poly. I won't see him until mid week so I'll jump back into this can of worms then.

Don


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