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Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/11/2008 4:39 PM   
sunspot


 

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From: WaterloovilleHampshire, UNITED KINGDOM
Status: offline 		As I mentioned before I'm new back to modelling after a long break (25 years). I visited my nearest model shop to get diesel fuel for my old DC dart and paw to be told he doesn't stock it because diesels are dead!

It seems he might not be far wrong in my area (southern England) as none of the half dozen model shops I called or dozens viewed on the web sell diesel fuel. I eventually found two web sources 100s of miles away and prices about 2.5 times higher than glow. One wanted to charge over £30 GBP to deliver (inflammable liquid surcharge of £22 for any volume), the other £8.99 for up to 4 UK gallons. You can guess which I chose and I get about a gallon for £45 to my door.

As glow fuel from my local shop is £15 a gallon and there is no guarantee I'll be able to get diesel at all in the future I feel I'm probably wasting money and time on diesels. I was thinking of an Enya ss25 D in an r/c trainer, should I just go electric?

How does everyone else get their fuel? Do you all have the same problem or is it just the south of England?

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/11/2008 7:30 PM   
tommy_b_o_y


 

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Status: offline 		WOAH! DON'T GO ELECTRIC!!!

i'm not anywhere close to you, but have you considered mixing your own fuel? kerosene (or lamp oil) is very likely to be available. castor. and then the doozy...some ether. Ether is the tough one cause you can't find it in a pure form due to stupid drugs. However, I use something found in a tractor store called John Deere Ether Starting Fluid. Its 80% pure. Works good, with a touch of diesel supplement (cetane booster).

So, the £45 per gallon is quite a hefty price, maybe you can shave a pence (is that right??) by mixing your own? it might be worth the investigating...

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/11/2008 9:04 PM   
LeeHop



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Status: offline 		Tommy-

How do you get the ether out of the can? I know this sounds like a dumb question but it's a spray can and I want the ether to be in a liquid state - I don't want to loose it in the air. Is there a trick to this?

Tnx - Lee

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/11/2008 9:16 PM   
RocketRob



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Status: offline 		Put the can in a large ziplock bag and squeeze ze trigger

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/11/2008 9:19 PM   
tommy_b_o_y


 

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Status: offline 		thats a good way. i just spray it into a glass bottle with a lid that is large enough to fit the top into and still small enough to cover with my fingers and disperse the liquid into the bottle without much escaping into vapor. you loose some, hopefully not much.

its good to have the spray can as level as possible without spilling.

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/11/2008 9:39 PM   
pe reivers



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Status: offline 		The can is gas pressurized. Hold upside down to get the gas pressure off. Then drill holes in the can to drain the contents. Do it outside. Driilng may cause sparks that can ignite the ether. I rather buy the ether in hospital supply stores. They may supply to you if you can convince them of your peaceful intentions, or supply them with a police statement (convince the police first )

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/11/2008 11:25 PM   
Dzlstunter



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Status: offline 		You might ask your question at the site below--it's in the UK and there are several guys who fly controlline diesels. In fact there is a lot of diesel activity from what I can glean from the site. Anyway, they will know where to get your fuel on the "right" side of the pond.

http://www.controlline.org.uk/phpBB2/index.php

Good luck, Dzl

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/11/2008 11:27 PM   
sunspot


 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for the advice. I'll have to find out if it's possible to get the ether here in the UK.

I was surprised how anti diesel the model shop owner, his customers, and shops I rang were. Not powerful enough and only good for vintage models with lots of dihedral was repeated several times. If that is the general view that's why they've disappeared I guess (along with the fuel).

At the end of the day I want to fly models so I might have to find alternative power sources. I won't give up yet but if running diesels becomes too much hassle mine will go into the cupboard on the shelf of 'things I used to use'.

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/11/2008 11:29 PM   
sunspot


 

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Status: offline 		Hi Dzl, just saw your post. I'll check out the link you found. Thanks for your help and interest.

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/12/2008 12:04 AM   
ffkiwi


 

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Status: offline 		Have you tried Model Technics in Shoeburyness? They are the premier fuel manufacturer and blender in the UK, and also stock separate components. www.modeltechnics.co.uk Their D1000 mix (of the 3 diesel fuel blends they produce) is appropriate for a Dart, but the PAW might use either D2000 or D3000 (the latter being a blend for ball raced motors)

'ffkiwi'

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/12/2008 12:49 AM   
lildiesel



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Status: offline 		My nine year old son begs to differ. He loves his small little Cox supply and is scratching his head about my diesels. We'll fly a sure start with the RJL head in a Brodak C37 this Saturday morning.

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/12/2008 2:38 AM   
AMB


 

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Status: offline 		Heres the drill again for anyone who missed the "ether" in a spray can
First try and get John Deere starting fluid 80% ether
OUTSIDE hold the can upside down and depress the sprayer most of the pressure will be bled off , it will just stop spraying when this happens
Still securing the can inverted punch a hole in the bottom near the edge with a nail,
use a jar like a one qt mason jar to collect the ether ( turn the can upright of course)
then pour it at once into a metal can I use an empty 1 qt one that alcohol, acetone etc comes in
Make sure cap is tight and store in the refrigerator till ready to make the brew of your choice
with the cap on tight you do not have the refer smelling of ether martin

Even if you buy ready made model tecnique fuel in the UK remember the engine will only use about half as much as running on glow so your cost per hr of fuel is about the same

< Message edited by AMB -- 4/12/2008 2:43 AM >

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/12/2008 2:47 AM   
gcb



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Status: offline 		I wouldn't store it in the fridge. IMHO it should be stored outside, out of sunlight (and heat).

George

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/12/2008 3:16 AM   
AMB


 

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Status: offline 		George as long as cool OK I keep my premix in the back bathroom closet and no smell martin

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/12/2008 4:27 AM   
bgerth


 

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Status: offline 		I have a couple of questions about extracting ether from John Deere cans. How much do you recover per can and how much does a can sell for? I was just wanting to do the math to see if it would be worth my while. Monday I'm driving to Tullahoma Tennesse to buy a couple of gallons from E. Clutton. I'm combining it with a vacation to Nashville with my wife. Otherwise with the price of gasoline I might as well pay the rediculous Hazrdous frieght charge.

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/12/2008 8:43 PM   
gcb



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Status: offline 		I think that depends on how careful you are when you remove it from the can. In any case, remember that the John Deere is 80% ether, the rest is considered as part of the kerosene portion. Don't reduce the oil.

There are other brands of starting fluid but some have much less ether, so you need to compensate differently with other fluids.

Most of my diesels are .15 and smaller. The one exception is a PAW .19. For me two gallons would be a LOT of fuel. I usually get quarts (which carries no HAZMAT fee). I keep my old cans in case I get a gallon. Many folks suggest dispensing the gallon into smaller containers if you run small engines.

I would go to Tullahoma just to chat with Eric Clutton, were I that close. Pick his brains on ways to dispense the fuel, and if you don't already have it, get his "Dr. Diesel's Diary". It's well worth the money.

Enjoy your vacation to Nashville.

George

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/13/2008 2:14 AM   
bgerth


 

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Status: offline 		Hopefully the two gallons will last me a long long time, anyway, the price won't be going down anytime soon. I also have a friend that has a couple of diesel C/L planes. If I didn't prod him along he wouldn't fly at all. So I supply his diesel too. I just purchased a Davis conversion head for a Thunder Tiger .46, not sure how thirsty that one will be. One last thing, I wait for a cold winters day to portion out the gallon into quart and pint containers, been working for me for years. Occasionally I will wind up with a partial pint not starting the engine and I have to pitch it. On summer days I have seen the vapors coming out of the can.

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/14/2008 8:28 AM   
mylamo


 

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Status: offline 		Diesel power is just fun! I don''t take anything else into
consideration.Smelly,oily and sometimes cantankerous,
all part of the attraction.Many of us on this forum have
been using them for forty or more years and generally
use other power as well,but the love of the little stinkers
has nothing to do with the fact that they outlast, outpull
and out fun just about everything else.
Ralph

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/14/2008 11:12 AM   
AMB


 

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Status: offline 		At the "sun and Fun: full scale show in Lakeland FL. One the "stars" was a Turbo diesel twin" Emory Riddle has 2 of them martin
and I will let the cat out of the bag. Davis is already in an R and D project on Bio diesel, the stink goes away, as I said R and D still a while till a reality

< Message edited by AMB -- 4/14/2008 11:33 AM >

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/14/2008 5:02 PM   
gcb



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quote:

ORIGINAL: bgerth
... Occasionally I will wind up with a partial pint not starting the engine and I have to pitch it. On summer days I have seen the vapors coming out of the can.


The first use I saw of starting fluid was to replace ether that had evaporated.

Instead of tossing the fuel, use starting fluid to replace that ether. It is easy to use the extender tube and dispense the ether against the side of the can or under the fuel level so that less goes into the air and more into the fuel. Use the can upright for this. None of the other ingredients evaporate much.

I ALWAYS use a fueler and keep a cap on the fuel can when not filling the fueler. This goes for glow or diesel fuel. Glow to keep moisture and dust out, diesel for ether loss. Use teflon plumbers tape on the can threads to seal it air tight. Eric Clutton shows how to dispense fuel from the can without removing the cap. I have not plumbed a can that way yet, but since my old fueler is getting tired, I think I''ll make one.

In the old days I dissolved several fuel bulbs before I knew how diesel fuel affected them.

George

Additional thought: During those hot days you can keep a wet towel around the fuel can or even keep the fuel can partly submerged in water to cut down on evaporation.

< Message edited by gcb -- 4/14/2008 5:08 PM >

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/14/2008 10:18 PM   
Applehoney


 

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Status: offline 		> the stink goes away

Stink? What stink??

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/15/2008 3:51 AM   
AMB


 

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Status: offline 		Having had a lot of diesel vehicles latest a 2006 Dodge turbo Cummins " stink is an expression:" I do not mind the odor and it does not make my eyes water glow exhaust does
during fueling I have gotten some in my eyes (model diesel) what happened nothing martin
just as a note the new low sulfur diesel #2 has almost no odor compared to the old stuff or gasoline
I made a small batch using it with Deere ether, castor oil and amsoil cetane booster all yuo sbell is the ether the exhaust still has that diesel aroma

< Message edited by AMB -- 4/15/2008 3:59 AM >

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/15/2008 5:11 PM   
j.hiner@comcast.net


 

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Status: offline 		I made my trek to the Toledo R/C show Friday April 4, 2008. I stopped by Eric Clutton''s (Dr. Diesel) booth a picked up two gallons of diesel fuel at $ 25 a gallon. He now only sells one mix and not the two he used to market in order to keep costs down. No more ball bearing and plain bearing mix. I usually at a bit of extra castor for break in and some extra ether for small engines anyway. Jack

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/15/2008 8:55 PM   
Lou Crane


 

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Status: offline 		Jack and all others...

I''d add to Pe''s method that I shake the spray can and gas off the propellant several times before piercing the can. If you hold the can properly vertical, you''ll get practically no droplets sprayed out. Also, I would not - repeat NOT - drill the can for a pouring hole.

An awl, held firmly against the can rim and struck with a rubber hammer is very certain to NOT strike a spark. The first punch hole forms a bung, and easing the awl''s point out very gradually lets almost all of the remaining propellant out. ...And, there will be remaining propellant pressure... Also, punching the upper rim, near the spray nozzle, works better to pour ALL the liquid into the catch jar... The first punch is to bleed out the remaining propellant, then punch two more alongside it as a pouring spout, then one or more opposite as vent.

I usually get the full 6 or so fluid ounces of liquid out. A regular in this forum either posted, or put up a link, for the MSDS for the John Deere starting ether. It includes an ounce, presumed mass, not volume, of butane or propane. That also must - and will - gas off before the fuel becomes usable.

Perhaps the same regular mentioned that the liquid makes nice fuel by using it as if it were pure tech ether. The can label says 80%, which would be 5.6 fl oz, if it is by volume. Using it as the specified 7 fl oz is simpler.

About 10 fl oz ether makes up a nice quart or liter of fuel, so figure on milking three cans of JD, per 2 qts/liters. The JD should be available at a John Deere sales/service shop, or most other farm/garden/ or camping supplier. Last I bought went around $3 per can.

Other diesel starting fluids, apparently, are mostly n-Heptane. That works, but runs more harshly and needs higher compression settings, in my experience. Di-ethyl ether is better. The AmsOil ignition improver reportedly works very well, too. Haven''t had opportunity to check it out yet.

Safety reminder: The ether and ignition improver are very hazardous if misused. Work with ample ventilation, away from easily ignited items in your workspace, and with deliberate, prudent care.

To seal even the capture jar, I wrap plumber''s teflon thread tape around the threads - works! Same for field and storage cans of blended fuel... And keep the diesel fuel out of direct sunlight - which can overheat it, expansion can deform metal cans, possibly spring seams, and definitely will gas off too much ether for proper operation. If possible, keep the field fuel in a drink cooler - e.g., an inexpensive styrofoam type.

Also, no, I wouldn''t put the captured ether in ANY kind of container in our refrigerator - my bride of 42 years just might not care for that...

On another forum, long ago, used to tag diesel related posts: "There''s a certain virile, manly aroma to a diesel flier..."

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RE: Diesels are dead - apparently! - 4/15/2008 9:27 PM   
j.hiner@comcast.net


 

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Status: offline 		Lou, I use a similar method to get the ether from the John Deere can of starting fluid. I shake the can go out side and holding the can inverted spray out the propelant. Then in the freezer for a while to cool down the ether. Then back out side and I also use an awl to puncture the can in two places on the top. One to pour out the contents and the other for a breather. I place the awl aginst the can and strike with the heel of my palm. But I always have got 8 ounces of fluid or 6.4 ounces of ether assuming 80% ether. Jack

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