RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by Metal-morphous   
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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 11/27/2008 3:17 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		Rich I'm sorry I miss you, Joe told me you stopped in and was checking out the progress on the Lightning and B-24 So if I see any drool marks I will know where they came from
I still have the Yellow P-38 that I bought back from you, I hope your not getting second thoughts about selling it back to me, I just hope the Z p-38 looks as good as the yellow lightning when its finished. I have it hanging in my home office for now but plan on selling it once the Ziroli lightning is finished. It’s an inspiration for me to get the lightning finished.
I will be in the office this weekend if you’re around stop in.

Pete- I originally planned on mounting the center section to the booms permanently but Joe from " Build right fly right hobbies" my consultant, talked me into keeping them removable. Access was one reason and if and when I need to crate it up it will be much easier. But because I am anal when it comes to gaps and spaces between the sections, its going to take me a little longer and some thinking on ways to get these areas to the point were you will not know them from one of the scribed panel lines. I did come with the solution for the wing mounting holes already. The holes fall right in or very close to a separate panel. I am making a very thin fiberglass panel that is the same size as the panel where the holes are,. It will be aluminum plated and installed using a thin two sided tape to hold the panel in place. It will have the rivets applied and when its completed you should not be able to tell its from a scribed panel. When I need to remove the booms, a heat gun will loosen the glue of the tape enough to remove the panels. I will post pictures when that time comes.


< Message edited by Metalmorphous -- 11/28/2008 3:17 PM >

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 11/28/2008 5:12 PM   
at-6 texan



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Status: offline 		Hi Ron
I'm building the two booms as you suggested me .. but I have some problems in understanding how to put the air tank inside the size 8 and 7 I saw that Nick also designs a fact the only problem and that the air tank does not want to know to enter .... I tried to take measures and I saw that this largest of half thumb .... you also found the same problem you tell me about ?.... ok ?..... hello, and soon

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 11/29/2008 2:50 AM   
G-Pete



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Status: offline 		Got it Ron.

My spruce is scheduled for Wednesday next week, I hoped for this weekend. Then the build starts.

later gator...

Happy landings
G-Pete

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 11/29/2008 4:21 AM   
slowglowflyer


 

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Status: offline 		I hope that you will do a build thread Gpete as I look forward to following it! Does Terry have any new project for next year?

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 11/29/2008 5:41 AM   
G-Pete



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Status: offline 		Terry has three big boxes...he just started a Spit check here for some pictures. Click here for my thread

Happy landings

G-Pete

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 11/29/2008 10:00 AM   
at-6 texan



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Status: offline 		Hi Ron
I'm building the two booms as you suggested me .. but I have some problems in understanding how to put the air tank inside the size 8 and 7 I saw that Nick also designs a fact the only problem and that the air tank does not want to know to enter .... I tried to take measures and I saw that this largest of half thumb .... you also found the same problem you tell me about ?.... ok ?..... hello, and soon

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 11/30/2008 9:44 PM   
Greg Wright


 

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Status: offline 		Hey Metal-Morphous it's been awhile since i've been on your thread but your Z p-38 is coming along pretty nice should be as sweeeeeet!!!! as your yellow a/c was just thought i'd throw you some pics of my yellow p-38 that i got two weeks ago. Along with some of the Y a/c p-47 i've been working on also.

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 12/1/2008 9:40 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		AT6 Samuele the air tanks have to be installed during the building process. 1. Install B8 2. Install airtank 3. Install B7 As you already know I dont have wood booms but
I have attache a picture I found of what it should look like.

Pete I have already vistited your thread. Your going to enjoy building the P-38.

Greg things have been moving slowly but steady. Once I get all the parts to fit with no gaps things should speed up and I can get the aluminum process started.

Ron



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< Message edited by Metalmorphous -- 12/1/2008 9:50 PM >

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 12/2/2008 1:38 PM   
G-Pete



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Status: offline 		Here is a good picture where the wing meets fuse. You are pretty much dead on...


happy landings
G-Pete

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 12/3/2008 10:46 AM   
DENTO


 

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Status: offline 		G-DAY RON Just clicked on to this build site ,WOULD you belive my plan,s and cowles arrived yesterday from zoroli,s p38 that is , Kit jan next year ,shall keep in toutch as time goes buy.
REGARDS JOHN

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 12/3/2008 1:16 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		Pete that picture of the full scale is just what I was looking for!! If you look in the area that I have the wing mounting holes you can see the panels that will hide the holes for the wing bolts. I'm also trying to replicate the look of the real aluminum skin in the sense of not being perfectly flat. The skins on full scale planes have many areas of imperfections like shallow waves in large panels and even some creases in the small ones. Because our aluminum will be polished, it will bring out these imperfections in the panels just like the full scale. If I dull the aluminum using steelwool and sandpaper it acts like flat paint and has a tendency to hide areas like this. The trick here is not to over do it and that’s where having good photos like the one you posted will help me with the placement and intensity of the panel treatment.

John it looks like there’s alot of P-38s being built over seas this year. If I can help out just let me know. RCU has been very helpful to me and I would like to return some of that help if I can and don’t forget to start a thread so we can see the progress and I can reminisce a little.

Ron


< Message edited by Metalmorphous -- 12/3/2008 1:18 PM >

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 12/3/2008 5:04 PM   
DENTO


 

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Status: offline 		Shall do Ron thanks for the reply
REGARDS
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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 12/4/2008 7:54 AM   
at-6 texan



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Status: offline 		Hi Ron ........this I know it!. .but when I construct the skillful part of the booms I have inasmuch as the air tank from the hole of the B8 section and B7… I have tried to make of the measures and have inasmuch as the hole was smaller than half inch… then I was asking myself if also you had had the same problem! ….cmq I have resolved the problem… I have adapted the hole of the section B8 and 7 so as to to be able to make to pass air tank through appropriate the eyelet… yesterday me all have arrived other things from Nick… the parts in fiber and the wheels… that I have already supplied to mount over the undercarriages!!! ….P.S I MUST MAKE a SINCERE THANKS IS TO NICK CHE TO GIVES OF it… for the optimal service and professionalism…

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 12/4/2008 8:14 PM   
G-Pete



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quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit driver
Hey g-pete & Langerl, If you are planning to put fowler flap's on the robart & ziroli p-38 i would advise you not to!! Greg Hahn did it on his TOP GUN model and it cost him an airplane. There was way to much drag that they acted more like speed brakes and they literally stop the plane in the air. He lost it during a practice flite a couple of years back.


Well my friend, you are totally wrong.

I don't know from where you have your information but your source is

I just got an e-mail from Greg now i quote Greg Hahn:

Pete, good morning to you

The airplane you’re referring to was lost at Top Gun in 1998. Yes it had the full Fowler flaps. The aircraft was lost due to a primary battery failure. After investigating the situation I think the flap servos were jammed by air pressure on the extended flap sections. The problem was that all servos were on the main battery supply including the receivers. Since this happened I now always separate the flaps from the main battery supply, so if it were to happen again it would only drain the flap battery and not the main battery.

Good luck on your project

Best regards

Greg Hahn


How about that, now with tons of people reading these posts - the rumor "do not do fowler flaps on a Ziroli P-38 114inch"


IS BUSTED


Happy landings


PS: I ordered the fowler plans anyway - how good they work...stay tuned and watch my videos coming up next year.

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 12/5/2008 1:32 PM   
Scotsman


 

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Status: online 		I don't fully understand what Greg means by "air pressure on the extended flap sections".. It seems that he means aerodynamic load on the flap and the servo was not able to move the flap, so it stalled the servo and then the battery was drained because of that. It makes sense to isolate a battery for the flap servos, but what do you think is the best solution? Is there a change in the flap system that could help so the servo(s) can not be stalled? The Model Airplane News plan design for Fowler flaps uses very long servo arms to get the high degree of axial travel needed. This means the linear force available to the flaps is low, so a high torque servo is necessary to get the most force possible. Short of going to a mechanism that does not use long servo arms, I guess the best we can do is crank up the servo torque to the maxium of what sevo fits and give them an isolated battey supply.

So the initial idea of Greg losing his P-38 because of high drag and the airplane stalling is busted, but the fact that it had Fowler flaps and the actuation of them caused a loss of radio due to batteryt drain is correct. So, something helpful can be gained anyway. Now, to figure out the best way to actuate the Fowler flaps....... I wonder if the robot guys have small, light, high force, proportional linear actuators? That is what we are looking for, short of going to the air cylinder actuation that has been tried with mixed success and piles of maintenance.

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 12/5/2008 2:18 PM   
G-Pete



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Status: offline 		My solution is follow;

As planned I will use 2 receiver and 2 independent Battery Packs for the receivers. Both packs have a capacity of 5600mah.
This eliminates a lot of Y-harness and in case of an receiver failure – you have a chance to get the airplane on the ground. The other reason for that is the receiver load is divided by two. Less amps – less heat – less chance to fail.

Now to the flaps, I looked over the plans and I will not go with the air-setup like the plans call for. I will install the Hitec 7955TG 333ounce servos – before they stop something will brake or shear. The same servos I will use to actuate the landing gear, but this is another story.

We don’t know what servos Greg used – this was 10 years ago. As of today the servo technology has made big steps. My experience is, servo failures are very rare – if they happen then the most reason is the builder has chosen the wrong servo for the application.

I had an incident with a 80 inch Jug, I used the recommended servos and not the recommended engine. The Airplane was pretty fast and the aileron servos stripped at the 3rd flight. Starboard side was totally gone and port side half way gone - what a landing.
Since then I use, as rule of thump, 25% more then the recommended servo torque.
…and never a nylon gear again, only metal…
Again, this I just my personal choice.

As I said before the 38 needs any square inch with that high wing load.


Happy landings

G-Pete

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 12/5/2008 2:31 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		I was wondering the same thing about the air pressure and figured it was outside air over the flaps. What I don’t understand is why the battery drained if the flaps are only deployed on landing, unless there was a load while they are retracted. We all know the sound of a buzzing servo and I was told that this is a drain on the battery and if the flaps were in the retracted position and the servo is on a draw, this is what could of caused the problem. Putting the flap servos on a differant battery is a good bandaid but I think a worm gear with a electric motor might be better.

< Message edited by Metalmorphous -- 12/5/2008 2:32 PM >

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 12/6/2008 5:04 AM   
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Status: offline 		The load placed on the primary battery (extended flaps) probably reached a point where the voltage dipped below what it needed to operate and resulted in loss of flap control, the receiver and everything else tied to it. If the servos were stalled for long enough that could certainly happen. If the primary battery was not fully charged (as one would expect towards the end of a flight), it would shorten the time to total failure.

You could gang more than one servo together to increase torque just like they do on large aerobatic planes if you are losing leverage due to the longer arms and drag on the fowler flaps in flight. The forces are probably not as different as we think on a large model with this setup. The redundancy might also help to save the day if one servo did fail. A seperate battery and/or inline fuses for those servos might also protect the rest of the system.

< Message edited by rustypep -- 12/6/2008 5:08 AM >

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 12/7/2008 3:33 AM   
thisoldman


 

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Status: offline 		getting ready to start building z 38 for a friend. Have been reading the post. lots of good info found. Will probably read them all again. will keep informed. Got to get the camera charged up and ready to go. Doing pictures for him.. He own the local hobby shop and just does not have the time to do it. Swapping labor for parts, material and other things he has there.

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 12/8/2008 9:16 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		Thisoklman- Sounds like you have the better part of the deal Now that my P-38 looks like a P-38 and I have moved on to the details I have been looking back at when it was nothing more than a box or wood. You can't put a price on the feeling of acomplshment you get when you build. To me its a 80/20 fun split. 80 percent for the building experance and 20 percent to see it fly but I have been told that we are a dying breed

< Message edited by Metalmorphous -- 12/8/2008 9:19 PM >

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 12/8/2008 9:40 PM   
DENTO


 

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Status: offline 		G-DAY Ron
The plans for the fowler flaps trying to find them having trouble, mind you it,s a long way off, In the research mode at the moment, When I have more time one day soon I shall tell you what I have been up to, Have only rediscovered this hobby of ours after an absence of 30 years, by the I didnt say abstinence.
REGARDS JOHN

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 12/9/2008 2:53 PM   
TomCrump



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quote:

ORIGINAL: Metalmorphous

Thisoklman- Sounds like you have the better part of the deal Now that my P-38 looks like a P-38 and I have moved on to the details I have been looking back at when it was nothing more than a box or wood. You can't put a price on the feeling of acomplshment you get when you build. To me its a 80/20 fun split. 80 percent for the building experance and 20 percent to see it fly but I have been told that we are a dying breed



We may be a dying breed, Ron, but we still know the joys of building !!!

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 12/10/2008 1:02 AM   
at-6 texan



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Status: offline 		hi Ron THIS IS THE FIRST..BOOMS!...

< Message edited by at-6 texan -- 12/10/2008 1:15 AM >

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 12/10/2008 1:20 AM   
at-6 texan



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Status: offline 		photos

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 12/11/2008 2:38 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		Sam your booms look great and at fraction of the cost of the fiberglass booms after the shipping chargers. I like the use of the ace bandage

I have been working on getting the gaps correct and fitting the canopy. I had to do some surgery on canopy to get the fit I was looking for. I will post pictures soon

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