RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by Metal-morphous  
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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by... - 5/27/2008 1:41 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		The kit arrived last week, sorry but due to the holiday I got too busy to post. I did an inventory of the kit and all looks very good and complete. PKC had originally given me a 4 to 6 week ETA and it was six weeks. Being a small business owner myself the 6 weeks was not a problem and it gave me time to get the gear doors and canopy sorted out. I am pleased with the quality of the workman ship and materials. So now its time to get things rolling.

Scotman- Thanks you for your support and please keep taps my build and if you see something that doesn’t look right, let me know


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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 5/27/2008 3:49 PM   
Scotsman


 

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Status: offline 		Ron,

Glad it arrived!! Looks very similar, if not the same, to the kit I started with. I don't remember, are you using fiberglass booms or built up? In either case, it is best to start with the wing and pod center section. The assembly process that Nick describes on the plans works well. I built the fuse/pod crutch using the plans to get the former spacing, but I use the formers themselves to tell me how wide the crutch needs to be at each former. It helps to have the formers fit the crutch without any adjustments. You don't want the crutch to be any wider then the slots in the formers because there is not a lot of room outboard of the crutch at some of the middle formers and they get fragile if you have to tweak them for a wider crutch. The crutch can get to wide if blindly built to the plans and not checked by the formers. I had to straighten a few wing ribs by tack gluing strips to the sides of them along chord lines. If you are going to add Fowler flaps by the design from the Model Airplane News plans, then choose the ribs you are going to install the rods against and make sure they are straight and parallel. It makes it much easier to take the time to do that now and have the ability to glue the guide tubes directly to the sides of the ribs over having to mess around with tapered wedges to space the tubes from the ribs later on. While you are getting the pats organized, the plans on a bench and your mind around Nick's assembly sequence, I will see what else I can think of....

Scot

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 5/28/2008 2:42 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		Scott, I'm going to install the fowler flaps and I'm using the fiberglass booms. I haven't looked into how the formers are installed in the booms yet but have started on the center section like you advised. I followed Nick's instructions and between my son in law and myself, I think we must have measured this part of the build a hundred times. I'm using a water base glue and it takes about an hour to set up but I like to leave it clamped over night. It goes together very nice, just have to pay attention to the plans and don’t get ahead of your self. I found former F-10 to be a questioned area, I did some research and found that I was not alone. I used the stringers to get the location correct. It now sits inside the crutch not on top. Thanks again Scot and I'm all ears to what other tips you have
Ron

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 5/28/2008 4:25 PM   
at-6 texan



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Status: offline 		hello metal-morphous… also I or the same model ..... you I can ask a favor? you could make of the photos the construction plans. .li I had orders you with to the kit of short but the ziroli did not have them puttinges within… hello and thanks!!!

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 5/29/2008 3:54 AM   
side oiler


 

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Status: offline 		I think your work is great! Are you sure your not using the ALSA system. Not the chrome paint that they offer but the 15K (to start-that's dollars by the way) system for applying chrome and metal finishes to non-metallic surfaces IE. fiberglass wood etc. 4 step process that has nothing to do with paint. Same process that the auto industry uses to put chrome and metallic coatings on plastic interior parts on cars and such.

I have witness the ALSA process first hand but never ever thought of using it on scale aircraft. Too bad it's so costly and wasteful.

no matter.. regardless as to what you use, your work is truley neat! Expecially on the Cobra's I like the idea of opening the hood and not seeing the fiberglass under side. Very smart and creative.

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 5/29/2008 2:58 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		Hello sideoiler (GREAT NAME) and thank you for your complements.

I do know of the ALSA products and no this is not that product. The process that you are talking about is a silver compound that is mixed in a carrier. It looks just like chrome, very nice but like you said, but it is very wasteful and it looks like chrome not aluminum. Our product is aluminum and because it is metal we can steel wool it, polish it, grain it and even weather it. The ALSA product has to be clear coated and you can not touch it before hand or it destroys the product. It also has to be applied to a perfectly smooth surface, again this would be problem for us because of the shapes and textures we have to metal plate. But I will say again that it very nice stuff, hard to tell it’s not chrome.

Ron

PS
This is the three steps of our process, as you can see we steel wool off the oxidation before it can be polished. After its been polished it can be steel wooled to give it an aged look and if you dont like that it can be polished back out. Only metal be treated like this, not paint or silver composite




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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 5/29/2008 5:00 PM   
at-6 texan



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Status: offline 		hello metal-morphous… also I or the same model ..... you I can ask a favor? you could make of the photos the construction plans. .li I had orders you with to the kit of short but the ziroli did not have them puttinges within… hello and thanks!!!

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 5/29/2008 5:26 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		Hello AT6-Texan

Would you like the writen instructions or the plans like in the picture I have attached?

Ron

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 5/29/2008 8:55 PM   
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Before you get the wing ribs all framed up, take the time to design the hinge carrier blocks for the Fowler flaps. I positioned the flap tubes on the wing ribs so the carrier block travles parallel to the 1/32 ply flap recess sheeting that Nick has designed in the plans. I used SIG X-Hinges for the flap hinges. They are big and tough so you can easily use 3 hinges per flap. I wanted the flap hinges as close as possible to the flap reces floor. I made the control horns on the flap carrier blocks from 1/16" G-10 and the carrier tubes were 1/4" carbon fiber tube that fit nicely in the inside of Dave Brown fiberglass pushrod tubes. The carrier blocks were a big lamination. The goal was to have the G-10 horn positioned in the middle of the lamination, the hinges near the top of the laminaiton and then final outside pieces of 1/32 ply to go over the tubes. So, the lamination went 1/32 ply, another 1/32 ply with notches for the hinges, 1/16" balsa, another 1/16" balsa with a notch for the control horn, 3/32 balsa amd then the bottom 1/32 ply. this gives a carrier block thickness of 5/16", so I cut notches in the wing ribs back from the flap recess 3/8" high and as deep as the carrier block is wide at each rib. I did this before the ribs were glued in because it is a lot easier then than after it is all together. I made up a jig that matched the angle between the ribs and forward edge if the flap recess so when I laminated up the carrier blocks, the tubes were exactly parallel with each other and spaced to fit between the ribs, including the thickness of the Dave Brown sleeve. Take the time to get the trailing edges of the ribs straight and the flap recess flat. It helps a ton when you are installing the flaps and sheeting the wing. Do you have the Model Airplane News plans for the flap mechanism? It has the basic idea and the details for the flap control horn that gets bolted to the servos. I also made the servo control horns out of 1/16" G-10 material. That stuff is tough to cut, but super strong and you get very positive fits with clevises. I found that there were very few parts on the airframe that didn't have something special about them. Each rib and most of the formers had something to add before gluing it in to make assembly much easier and less hacking with a dremel tool after it's all together. The good news is that it starts to look like an airplane very quickly and that is very satisfying.
Scot

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 5/29/2008 11:26 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		Scot I have attached a picture of the flap set up I was planning on using, is this the same set up that you used?

I also have attached a picture of paperairplane P-38 and noticed that he has glue F-4 to the crutch and it looks like he made a copy of f-3 and the nose is removeable at that point. I have seen another P-38 like this and it looks like they changed the point that the nose is removed. I would like to keep the seperation point to the plans but it looks like F-4 needs to be cut in half,,,, Any thoughts on this is appreciated.

Ron

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 5/30/2008 8:00 AM   
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Status: offline 		thanks so very much!!!!!!Metalmorphous.....I'm trying to understand how to build it ... I contact yesterday nick Ziroli to know that had happened to me .. and he replied that plans were in press and that it will take at least two weeks to have them and send them.Compliments for the previous 38 really very beautiful !!!..... then I wanted to ask you some information and advice ... I have another problem on some pieces to fit ... that is on the plate (FC 1) I call that the sides should be mounted cocks of the junction with the rest of the fuselage can you I say that legnio ee which are the measures?(look the your photos).....(2) I have to also build a mould for a fuselage glass resin. .. but I do not know how to build the master ... I wanted to use the carton for shapes, and polystyrene foam to make the fuselage (for instance as a fact fokke for his bf-109) .. but I lack the size. .. you could help me? then there really would be grateful !!!!.... THANKS SO VERY MUCH!!!!..........

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 5/30/2008 2:28 PM   
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Status: offline 		Ron,

Yes, that is the same idea for the Fowler flaps. I used flat hinges to get the hinge point just a bit higher than you would using Robart hinge points. It makes shaping the leading edge easier, but it is a very minor point and not one to worry about.

It looks to me like Paperairplane's P-38 is not built to plan for a removable nose. F1, F2, F3, the top half of F4, and F3A do NOT get glued to the crutch. And yes, F4 does get cut in half, but don't cut it until you have the nose all strip planked. I strip planked the nose in 1/8 by 3/8 - 1/2" strip and as I would glue one down, I would slice it at the parting line with a razor saw between the formers. After that is done, I went back and finished cutting through F-4. You have to pay attention to where the glue is running, especially if you use thin CA at all..... it goes everywhere and makes busting the nose loose tough.... BTW, when formers F1, F2, F3 and F4 are cut to the plans, they have a large gap with the F1C side plates. I remember having to temporarily glue a cross member at a few spots along the top of F1C to pull the tops together. I used 1/4" square in line with the former locations.

I think I have some pictures of the removable nose, but I can't post them from here (work)....

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 5/30/2008 7:35 PM   
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Here a few pictures to work with:
Note the modifications to the ribs to accomodate the flap carrier block as it retracts into the wing:

Here are the pod formers in place. The parting line for the removable nose section is set by the formers being spaced with 1/32 ply to get even gaps.

After the nose is strip planked, it can be separated and the mating faces faced with 1/64 ply:





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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 5/31/2008 6:31 AM   
at-6 texan



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Status: offline 		thanks so very much!!!!!!Metalmorphous.....I'm trying to understand how to build it ... I contact yesterday nick Ziroli to know that had happened to me .. and he replied that plans were in press and that it will take at least two weeks to have them and send them.Compliments for the previous 38 really very beautiful !!!..... then I wanted to ask you some information and advice ... I have another problem on some pieces to fit ... that is on the plate (FC 1) I call that the sides should be mounted cocks of the junction with the rest of the fuselage can you I say that legnio ee which are the measures?(look the your photos).....(2) I have to also build a mould for a fuselage glass resin. .. but I do not know how to build the master ... I wanted to use the carton for shapes, and polystyrene foam to make the fuselage (for instance as a fact fokke for his bf-109) .. but I lack the size. .. you could help me? then there really would be grateful !!!!.... THANKS SO VERY MUCH!!!!..........

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 5/31/2008 6:42 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		Scot those picture are just what I was looking for. I now see I was correct but I just didn't want to glue anything until I knew for sure. Thanks again and I'm sure I will need your help again. The attached picture shows my progress to date.


AT- 6 texan I had no problems with FC-1, just have to make sure its set directly over the plans and I clamped mine down and pinned it on the edges to make sure it is in place. Like Scot pointed out, let the formers set the distance between the crutch, I now know what he means about the fact that the body can get too wide if you don’t pay attention to this. Make sure the area you are building on is perfectly flat, measure and square every time your going to glue up a section.

Ron

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 6/1/2008 4:21 AM   
at-6 texan



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Metalmorphous .. you could tell me how to build a master for the fuselage fibreglass )??... I was thinking of using parts of the model p-38 ziroli to find the exact size 1/5...poi give you above the polystyrene and then expanded paper sgrossare glass and polished ....please look the photos in down... (BF-109 ONLY FOR EXMAPLE)....

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 6/2/2008 1:09 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		at-6 Texan- I would build the Ziroli P-38 to the plans and then make molds for a fiberglass unit. Its been done before but to my understanding the airframe gets heavy and with an already high wing load this would not work for me. I have attached a site that that a modeler did just that with a spitfire. There are some good photos and tips that Grumpy offers.http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_5349526/anchors_5349526/mpage_1/key_spitfire/anchor/tm.htm#5349526


Ron

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 6/2/2008 11:28 PM   
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Status: offline 		thanks so much Metalmorphous for link.... but i not understud....you not wanth bulder an fuselage????why you no???if you use the fiberglass for fuselage you have many lightness and strong strutture=peed-lightness....no!!!!!

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 6/4/2008 3:46 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		at-6 Texan in my opinion the Ziroli wood P-38 is MORE than strong and lighter than fiberglass, the advantage of fiberglass is that it is less susceptible to hanger rash and fiberglass kits build faster. Joe from Build Right Fly Right hobbies said he feels that I could hog out most of the former on this P-38 to reduce the weight even more and after glassing it would still be more than strong enough to fly scale.

Scot I have attached a few picture of my progress and was hoping that you might have a few pictures of your wing build. I have found a lot of pictures of the center section but few on the wing.

Thanks
Ron


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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 6/4/2008 10:51 PM   
at-6 texan



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Status: offline 		yes i understud!!!!.."i things so:. i belive so when you haves an kit to pyl wood-balsa or more...you can build somethings to only and
single..but when you fly.you dont can err...why
otherwise obstruct the sacrifice everything done before....i'm sorry but this is an my thing.

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 6/4/2008 11:41 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Metalmorphous

at-6 Texan I my opinion the Ziroli wood P-38 is MORE than strong and lighter than fiberglass, the advantage of fiberglass is that it is less susceptible to hanger rash and it fiberglass kits build faster. Joe from Build Right Fly Right hobbies said he feels that I could hog out most of the former on this P-38 to reduce the weight even more and after glassing it would still be more than strong enough to fly scale.

Scot I have attached a few picture of my progress and was hoping that you might have a few pictures of your wing build. I have found a lot of pictures of the center section but few on the wing.

Thanks
Ron


She's looking good. I'm assembling a Nitromodel ARF P-38. The smaller version, powered with two .15's. I envy you guys with all that interior space....this little thing is driving me crazy!

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 6/5/2008 7:53 PM   
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Status: offline 		Ron,

All the photos I have of the build are here:
http://s261.photobucket.com/albums/ii65/stewpots/P-38/

You should be able to get to that album and see what I have. The wings are a fairly simple build, but scale hinging for the ailerons is fun...... I'll check back later and see if I can add more details.

Scot

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 6/5/2008 8:41 PM   
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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 6/6/2008 9:46 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		Scot I'm keeping your picture on file so I can use them when things get questionable. I do have one more question for now. I would like to start the outer wings and in the instructions # 71 it states "Add the rest of the ribs so the ribs sit on the rib shim". What is the RIB SHIM? I am assuming its the 1/4 X1/2 stringer.

Ron




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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 6/6/2008 10:01 PM   
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I think you have it, but the rib shim doesn't really end up being a stringer. It sits on the building board as indicated on the plane and the ribs rest on top of it, but the two do not get glued together anywhere. Building Nick's wings is fairly similar from design to design. Start by pinning the bottom 1/4 x 1/2 spar to the bench over the plans, don't have the rib shim on the plan yet. I put a pin in every other rib bay at the front of the spar to keep it straight. Use the plans to set the rib spacing and glue the ribs to the spar using a square to keep them perpendicular to the board. Then you can unpin the bottom spar, but leave the pins along the front of the spar in the board. Lift the spar and rib assembly away and pin down the rib shim. It will stand tall off the board on the 1/4" dimension. Put the rib and bottom spar assembly back down on the board with the front of the spar resting agianst the pins to keep it straight and the ribs will rest on top of the shim. This rolls the ribs up and the bottom spar will lift off the board near the tip ribs. sight down the trailing edge to see what ribs need to be tweaked to get a straight trailing edge. You will probably have to shim a rib or 2 on top of the rib shim and you may have to sand the airfoil slightly on other ribs. It's all slight tweaking, but it is important to get the trailing edge straight, especially if you want tight fitting flaps. Once you have the ribs all aligned, then you can add the top spar.

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