RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by Metal-morphous   
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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 7/17/2008 10:26 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		I have the rudders roughed out with the hinge pockets ready to be epoxied in. I liked Nicks hinge set up on the ele so I decided to use it on the rudders. I still have to cut out sections of fiberglass for the rudder counter weights but not until I do a finial fit.

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< Message edited by Metalmorphous -- 7/19/2008 2:08 PM >

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 7/22/2008 1:54 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		This is the trial fit of the stab and ele to the booms. The fit was perfect and I have marked and sanded the areas that the ele extensions will be mounted. Next I will glue up this sections and get ready to sheet the ele extensions. Again Scott you were right, this is a complicated build but I never had so much fun

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< Message edited by Metalmorphous -- 7/22/2008 1:55 PM >

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 7/22/2008 2:05 PM   
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Status: offline 		There are a good number of points in the build where all you have to use for alignment is your eye. The stabilizer extensions outside of the fins are a good example. The parts are to small, fragile, intricate to do anything fancy with incidence meters, etc. So you just end up using your eye. Take many looks and try to get the parts to sit in the desired alignment with no help from external fingers, then you can tack glue with thin CA and go back to reinforce with other glues. I found that if I had to hold anything in alignment and then tried to glue it there it would never be in the same place nor the place I wanted it to be. Check the alignment repeatedly and then glue. Good thing the lines of the P-38 are so beautiful, otherwise the motivation to go through all of this would be tough to muster.

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 7/23/2008 5:03 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		Scot I set up the two small balsa formers over the plans and tacked them to the 1/4" dowels, then placed the ply formers in place and looked down the center of them. They need very little adjustment on right boom but had to re-drill the holes for the dowels in the left boom. They were off 1/16 inch, doesn’t sound like much until I looked down the center and noticed that if I did adjust them the rudder would hit one side on full travel. Like you said best to line them up by eye. I am also working on getting the right and left side extensions to be at the same points on the boom where the leading edge and trailing edges end, all I am doing here is getting base measurements and try to get them the same on each boom.

Ron


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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by... - 7/27/2008 11:47 AM   
JIMMYMUGUREL



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Status: offline 		Hello Ron

Glad to see another thread started.

I'm sure will be another piece of art.

Will follow it closely.
Thank's for sharing it with us.

Your's
JIMMY

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by... - 7/28/2008 6:57 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		Thanks Jimmy and its good to here from you again. This one is going to moving a little slower due to the complexity of the plane but once shes buttoned up things will start to fly stay tuned
Ron

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by... - 7/29/2008 2:04 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		I'm still waiting for my carbon fiber rod and was told that it should be in today this gave me sometime to get the booms attached. Scot gave me some good advice for this part of the build, measure about 20 times before mounting the booms. To my surprise the fiberglass boom mounting points came out to be within 1/8 of and inch of each other. I did have to do some tweaking to get the cross measurement dead on but again nothing drastic. I have to thank Nick for a well designed plane, if you pay attention to details during the beginning part of the build I think it makes things easier to assemble the parts later on. The last picture is something new I am planning for the Lightning. Since I am spending a lot of time on fine details like the fowler flaps and aluminum skin, I have been talked into getting the control rods for the ailerons inside the wing. I have seen this done before but didn’t like the restricted movement. This is what a friend came up with and has it installed on his corsair. It increased the movement with very little gain in weight. I will post pictures when they are finished. But in the meantime here are some pictures of how it looks today. Once the flaps and ailerons are complete I will be able to close up the wings.

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< Message edited by Metalmorphous -- 7/29/2008 2:05 PM >

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 7/29/2008 3:57 PM   
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Status: offline 		Ron,

Not sure if you are aware of this, but the ailerons on a P-38 are actually hinged at the top skin of the airfoil. If you are interested in hanging on for a week, I can get you many full-scale detailed pictures when I am at Oshkosh later this week. They were hinged with what pretty much looks like a piano hinge the entire length of the aileron at the leading edge, top surface of the aileron. It makes for some neat geometry. If you look in my P-38 photos on Photobucket, you can see that I hinged the aileorns with flat Dubro giant scale hinges while replacing the brass cotter pins with piano wire. Those hinges are right in line with the top wing sheeting. The aileron bottom gets a concave recess to clear the hinge line shroud when the aileron is deflected down. Forward of the concave recess the aileron leading edge is convex and rounded to maintain the gap with the shroud as the aileron is deflected up. The P-38, both full scale and Nick's specs call for differential aileron throw, so the aileron moves much further up than it does down. I believe Nick found this to be pertinent when he flew his prototype as well. It is listed on his plans in the control throws as well. Differential aileron throw helps eliminate adverse yaw, which is most prevelent in models(and fullscale airplanes) with smaller volume in the vertical stabilizer( i.e fin & rudder). The P-38 falls into this category.
Your friends aileron control system is a good one and has been used very successfully many times, but the geometry of it won't work out for top hinged ailerons. For the top hinged ailerons to work well, it is important that the airfoil surface along the hinge line be as straight as possible. Any curvature in the airfoil thickness taper will screw up the top hinge line, especially if you blindly install the hinge slots an equal distance down from the top skin. Just details, let me know if you want some details of the full scale. I'm leaving Thursday night.

Scot

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 7/30/2008 3:06 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		Scot that would be great, I checked all my books on the P-38 and I can’t find a good picture of the hinges. I am planning to use the hinge set up that Nick has on the plans. It looks like you did the same with yours. But instead of the rod being exposed on the out side of the wing we going to mount the tube between like in the picture I have attached. As for the throws, we can adjust the mechanism to achieve them. We just have to workout how we going to mount the tube. The corsair has the slider in aileron but Im not sure if this will work on the Lightning. I will let you know what we come with but I can do anything until Joe machines out the parts that I need.

Ron


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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 7/30/2008 11:04 PM   
longeze



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The 38 is top hinged all the way. Here is my top, botton and pushrod setup. The hinge pin pulls out so you can remove control surface anytime. I used the piano hinges from Nelson Hobbies. Differential throw as called out by Ziroli and this setup makes rolls and turns sooooo smooth for precision flying.

Glenn

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< Message edited by longeze -- 7/31/2008 2:59 AM >

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 8/1/2008 5:11 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		Brian I like that alot!!! nice job,,,, can you show me how you mounted your servo and control rod?



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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 8/1/2008 10:59 PM   
longeze



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Status: offline 		Ron,

Carbon pushrod cut to 13/16 with Titanium 4-40 ends and ball links. A .060 aluminum rib was made as in drawing and sandwiched between 2 balsa 1/4" ribs for support. By using aluminum I get great load support and dont have to worry about the hole wallering out. The wing tip shows a small siliconed on cover that when removed allows the piano hinge wire to pull completly out to remove control surface in seconds.

Glenn

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 8/4/2008 3:49 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		Thanks Brian, I now have to figure out which method is better suited for my needs.


I am still waiting for the carbon fiber and thought I would get the push bars installed to the flaps. I used 1/4 in ply and robart hinges. I removed areas in the formers for the retracted push plates and now just need the rods to complete. Next I will hinge the alerons. I cleaned up my work area and to my surprise the large pile of wood is now just a few odd and ends what a good feeling that is.

Ron


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< Message edited by Metalmorphous -- 8/4/2008 3:53 PM >

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 8/6/2008 3:25 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		I have to finish the nose section on the fuse so I can start to fiberglass the balsa skin. The pictures show some PVC tube that I'm using for the gun ports. I sand in the angle needed to keep the guns lined up with the holes in the former. After marking the gun areas I glued in the PVC. After everthing has cured I will remove the material from the new gun port . I used two different sizes, one for the 50 cal. and a larger one for the 20 mm. canon.

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< Message edited by Metalmorphous -- 8/7/2008 10:46 PM >

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 8/7/2008 10:22 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		I cut out the holes in the fiberglass where the tubes where located and sanded them smooth. Then I added the collars and a thin coat of primer so I could see what I was doing. Its places like this that our Aluminum plating process will really look great because the aluminum will get most of the way down the tubes and after the fasteners, rivets and guns are added it should look just like the fullscale. I'm going to make the guns the same way I did on our yellow P-38 but because this is a larger scale I will have to make a new jig, I will post picture when that time comes.

As you can see I'm getting some of the details out of the way, this will speed up the plating process so I will be able to get down to the real details

Ron

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 8/8/2008 3:05 AM   
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Status: offline 		Looking good Ron. I'm looking foward to adding the details on mine. Almost finished with my Ziroli Cosair then I jumping on the Lightning. I just got my 12X last night for the P38. Thats one sweet radio. I'm going to try to make the canopy frame as you did. Also looking foward to see how you make the guns and fillets. JZ

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 8/11/2008 1:26 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		JZ WOW a Ziroli corsair and lighning back to back builds!!! and I thought I had ambition The corsair is favorite of mime too after the lightning and if Nick did as good a job on designing the corsair as hid did on the lightning then I'm sure its an outstanding plane. I'm not a pro on building the ligntning but have learned a lot on my build and if you need information or advise just let me know. If I dont have the answer Scot here on RCU has helped me more than once with my build, I sure he would also chime in.

Ron

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 8/11/2008 10:54 PM   
JSZ



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Status: offline 		Oh I'm sure he will chime in seeing as he constructed both planes for me. The pictures he sent are of the one he did for me. I perfer to finish them and he is a excellent builder. Don't know if you remember I PMed you about the canopy frame. Also what is your plan for the elevator and rudder servo's as far as selection and position. Our inital plan was to install them in the horizonal and vertical stabs. After more research I don't think that is going to work.

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 8/12/2008 1:31 PM   
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Status: offline 		The only thing that made me snicker was the back to back build parts.......... The Corsair is in danger of dry rot, but I don't think the P-38 will fall victim to the same schedule since there was a house move, and a mid life crisis motorcycle in the middle of the Corsair build. I was begining to wonder if my son, who was born a few weeks before the Corsair was delivered, was going to solo before the Corsair flew. Now he'll probably just maiden the Corsair for JSZ, because somebody has got to do it!!
Scot

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated b... - 8/12/2008 7:46 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		I guess I should pay more attention to my own thread this is what happens when you only have about 1 hour a day to do the things you really enjoy. Scot how does the ziroli corsair build compare to the lightning build, I would imagine its less time consuming.
I got my ailerons hinged and I used the large scale hinges as per Nick's plans and I used the piano wire instead of the cotter pin. I gota call today and the carbon fiber rod has arrived but I have already started making the 50 cal. gun so I will finish them this week and pick up the rods on Friday. That should give me the weekend to get the flaps worked out.

JZ Making the guns is easy. Nick's plan show a 3/8 tube for the 50 cal. but I feel that this is too big to be scale so I'm using 5/16 aluminum tubing for the cooling chamber and !/8 inch for the barrel. The 20mm cannon will be 3/8 tube with a 3/16 barrel with no cooling holes. First you have to make a drilling jig. The jig keeps the cooing holes nice and straight. The jig is made from an old aluminum turn buckle. I unscrewed the ends and sand it smooth. Then find center of one of the flat areas, next I set some masking tape on the centerline and with a center punch mark your hole locations. I start with a 1/16 inch drill and if all looks good I move up to the 1/8 inch drill. You will note the hole in the very end, that’s where I will pin the tube so it stay lined up when drilling. Mark and drill the tube in the 5 or 6 locations , this is where I use the pin. I will post more pictures soon.

Ron




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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 8/13/2008 1:32 PM   
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Status: offline 		The Corsair build is neat because you can make it very complicated or you can keep it simple like a sport aircraft build. The inverted gull of the center section is not a big deal to frame up, especially with a kit cut by a kit cutter who can keep the slots and notches sized correctly and straight. Sheeting the inverted gull is not a big deal, most of the gull part is sheeted with grain at 45 degrees and this stops the vast majority of any tin-canning of the sheeting. If you head toward landing gear doors, it gets more complicated and if you try for a full scale retractable tailwheel and arrestor hook, then things get delicate and require more precision. Past that though, it is a straight forward build. The P-38 isn't really more difficult, it is just more to build. The 3-piece wing seems to take more time and with 2 fuselage booms, you are building 2 fuselages it seems. Alignment is the whole thing with the P-38 and the long skinny gear doors are more work to get to close nicely. Though I have to admit, I left that work for JSZ on the P-38. Also, in the P-38 you have to be a little more careful with the wing to boom fit since it is going to get shaken a lot with it being a twin. The P-38 is definitely more work, but not really harder.
Scot

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 8/14/2008 2:17 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		Scott I been doing some research on the corsair looking for a full-scale plane that was not painted and left in bare aluminum. My plan is to build and aluminum plate it like all of our other display models but I could not find one. Apparently they were painted from the factory. I will keep looking and I think the corsair will be my next plane, but I have to get the lightning completed first and the real work hasn't even started yet

I have attached a picture of a 50 cal gun that I have completed drilling the cooling holes and inserted the barrel. After the first set up the jig makes it easy and quick to drill the other 3 guns.. More picture of the guns to follow.

Ron


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< Message edited by Metalmorphous -- 8/14/2008 2:22 PM >

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 8/14/2008 5:16 PM   
Scotsman


 

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Status: offline 		Are there any spacers between the barrel and the cooling tube? They look great and do you know what exactly the turnbuckle came from, or where you got it initially? It's a great tool for drilling the cooling tubes. Nicely done. You do realize that you could make an extra set of each of these detai litems and JSZ would be more than happy to buy them from you..........
Scot

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 8/15/2008 3:53 PM   
Metalmorphous



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Status: offline 		Scott the guns in the picture only have the barrels in place with some tape wrapped around the base to hold them in place for the trial fit. I will make the permanent collars from a brass washer and they are inserted from the front of the gun like the full scale guns. I will find the size that will fit the ID of the tube then drill it out for the barrel size. Hey maybe I'll get lucky and find a washer that has both the ID for the tube and the OD for the barrel but knowing how things work in the real world I figure I will have to make it fit I'm not sure where we got the turnbuckle from but your local hardware store will have them, it has a 3/8 hole and six sides. I’ll have to have JZ call me and I will see what I can do for him but it sounded like he like to do the detail work himself, just not sure to what extent of the details this consist of.

I set the guns in place and they have a nice scale look, I think after I get them painted they will fit the bill. Another little trick I like to use is to use brass for the barrel and before the finial assembly I will take a torch and heat it up until it get a nice rainbow of color, everything from blue to red. It’s a natural effect of brass when heated and you can control the effect from very harsh to very light. I will post more pictures of that when I get to it.


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< Message edited by Metalmorphous -- 8/15/2008 4:04 PM >

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RE: P-38 Ziroli designed, built and aluminum plated by ... - 8/15/2008 6:27 PM   
Scotsman


 

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Status: offline 		Your guns look great. I was thinking that you could find some brass tubing with the OD equal to the ID of the coolin gtubes and the ID equal to the OD of the gun barrel. A short slice will make a nice spacer. Not sure if the aluminum tubes are sized to be compatible with the brass tubes.... When I put JSZ'z P-38 together I designed in a retention system for the nose that will use sheet metal screws inside the guns to hold the nose on. A long allen wrench down the tube of the 2 outer most guns can engage the heads of screws encapsulated in the guns that are permanently mounted to the nose section. We'll see if JZ can get it to work, but I'm pretty sure it can be done. Again, nice job on the guns, I like your size choices.
Scot

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