High Altitude First Combat Plane (Full Version)

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SeamusG -> High Altitude First Combat Plane (4/16/2008 10:54:58 PM)

Hi all,

Our club recently hosted a combat competition - electric, SSC and Open B. Competitors included Tom Neff, Team Scharnell (Frank and kids with Avenger B2+ planes) and others. Tom got his clock cleaned in the electric competition by Chris (a 12 year old). Great stuff. Resulted in quite a bit of interest by the members to get involved in combat flying. I'd like to solicite your humble opinions [8|] on where to start.

After some conversations with experts and novices alike, here's what I've learned:

1. Start with Open B - big motor (OS 25 FX) - because we are at altitude and it will make learning to fly these lawn darts much easier.
2. Build an Avenger B2+ (well DUH! Frank - he's local and it makes sense to support local business)
3. Receiver - AR6200 (yea, a lot of Spektrum DSM radios) - the wires connect at 90 degrees to Rx body whereas the AR7000 connect at 180 degrees.
4. 6 oz. Hayes tank
5. 4.8v 700 mAh battery (plugged directly into Rx)
6. Servos: HS-82MG (thro), HS-85MG (ele), HS-225MG (ail)
7. prop - tbd

What about ground equipment? Don't ask what I think about cleaning up bird repellent!!!!

What about a spares kit? Yea, yea I know - 2 or 3 spare planes - NOT YET darn it! Wing kit? Tail feathers kit? Props? Batteries? A gazillion rubber bands?

Any and all comments are appreciated (except, of course, for "DON'T DO IT!!! - I'm not married and don't have to rationalize it to someone else). The way I look at it, competitive flying is much cheaper than road racing cars or motorcycles (not RC stuff!).

Cheers,



Pathous -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (4/17/2008 1:09:45 AM)

Welcome to RC Combat. Props, I like the mas 9x4 scimitar it runs well at the higher elevations. Spares bring enough props to change one every round. Some times you don't need that many sometimes you will. Bring an extra servo for each surface, an extra built wing will help along with tail feathers and an extra fuel tank thats already built. I like to use carpet tape instead of the tangle foot it's easy to remove and doesn't make a huge mess. Your 700 mah battery will fly 6 rounds without any problem but it's always a good idea to bring along a field charger. You will also want to pick up a mouse can or two from the Scharnell's .

Scott



SeamusG -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (4/17/2008 2:56:09 AM)

Thanks Scott.

MAS 9x4 Scimitar props seem to be uncommon. Do you suggest "buy a bunch" when located? Can you recommend alternates? The more I learn - the more questions I have [:-]

What servos do you use?

Are you familiar with receivers with remote components like the Spektrum AR6200/AR7000? I'm guessing that a soldering iron can be used to hollow out the foam for each receiver as well as channels to route the wiring. How does your receiver accept the servo wires? At 90 degrees (plug in the face - ) or 180 degrees (plug in the end - smaller profile). See pics. Which would "package" better?

Mouse can? Is that the combat (exhaust) can? AirScharnell sells a replacement can w/o the manifold. Is that what you carry as a spare? Or the entire manifold & can?

If you use a field charger does that mean that you have a switch/charge port on your plane? Or simply pull the battery extension from the receiver and charge directly?

Enquiring minds - now if I could just fly ...

Sorry about dup pics - get error when trying to delete one - oh well



rrh -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (4/17/2008 3:56:57 PM)

SeamusG, really glad to hear you are interested in joining the combat madness [:)] Unfortunately I could not make the contest at your field this year. I flew there last summer and it is a spectacular facility you have there!

The best way to get started is to build something, you can't go wrong with the Avenger, and start going to contests. Combat pilots love to help out new people and we have all the spare and repair parts you will ever need. When you go to events you will see what we are all using and assemble and expand your field box accordingly.

There is a contest at Airpark this Saturday I hope to make and on May 3rd I'll CD the event at Mile Hi club. Hope to see you there. Several other local events are on the schedule for this year. We are in a good area of combat activity [8D]

Some of the things you might want to start rounding up for your field box:
Spare control arms and clevises - they tend to disappear from mid-air contact - have some extra servo arms too - they often get broken.
Fiberglass reinforced tape and packing tape for wing repairs. Some tie wraps. Some extra fuel line. Throttle arms get broken fairly often. Like Scott says - props! I use the APC 9x3 combat props. A can of spray carb cleaner will get used often on the flight line. Spare glow plugs. I always have bamboo skewers within reach for repairs to the coro tail feathers.

That's a start. When you really get going you'll have enough spare parts to completely rebuild several planes [:D] My flight box is so heavy I can hardly get it out of the trunk of the car [X(]

I am an advocate of supporting the local hobby stores rather that buying on the www. The Scharnell family not only contributes 3 combat pilots to the local scene but they are wonderfully supported by Jan back at AirScharnell. She stocks a lot of good combat stuff and can order anything we need - not to mention producing the Avenger line. I live in Colorado Springs but keep my shopping list current so when I am in Denver I can buy from the store that supports our hobby.

So jump right in and get started [:D] Hope to see you at an event soon.

Cut you later [>:]

r



Montague -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (4/17/2008 5:44:54 PM)

Make sure you have at least 2 extra of every screw, bolt, nut, etc on your plane. Including the spinner nut.

I don't know how you prefer to make your pushrods, but it pays to have a spare elevator and aileron pushrods already made up and set to length, they have an annoying tendancy to disappear, espeically the aileron rods.

I agree with the "one prop per round, plus one on the airplane" rule.

The more spare parts you have, the better.

After you're really hooked, you can reduce your spare parts somewhat by having spare airframes. It's really nice going to a 6 round contest with 4-5 airplanes all trimmed out and ready to roll. If something breaks, you just go to a backup, which makes the contest a lot less stressful. Wings get damaged more often than fuses, so spare wings are really handy even if you can't build and equip a ready to go plane.

While I don't mean to suggest you have to, or even should, run out and set up 4-5 planes, it really pays to have a second ready as soon as you can manage it. Having a backup plane ready to go can be huge. If you can't afford to fully equip it, build one plane, fly it, trim it, save the model configuration in the radio, then pull the engine and radio and put it in a second airframe and configure that. Now if you splatter the airframe, you can just move the engine and RX. Engines get dirt in them, but are usually not broken, same with RXs.

Which reminds me, bring carb cleaner or some other means to "pressure wash" the mud out of an engine. I've been to more than one contest where on-field engine rebuilds were done mid-contest.

When you do start with multiple airframes, keep with the interchangeable parts thing. I always use the same control horns, screws, etc on every plane, so I can "combine wrecks" to make a flyable plane if I have to.

Btw, if you haven't already, score the needle mount on the OS .25FX. It could keep you from replacing the whole backplate. Having a spare needle isn't a bad idea either.

Also, a tip when you're building wings, it pays to pick a color scheme and stick with it for a number of reasons. First, you get used to seeing your plane which means you have to think about flying your own plane less. Second, it lets other guys know who you are. Now, that might or might not be a good thing, but personally, as an experience pilot, if I can recognize a newbie's plane, I'll work extra to avoid knocking it out most of the time, and I usually target them late in the heat when they are the only streamers left. Now, if you fly with someone known for picking on newbies, that might not be a good idea, but I don't think there are many like that. Also, if you know what the "hot shots" in your area tend to use a color scheme, it often pays to NOT look like them in the air, as they often attract a lot of extra attention [:D]



SeamusG -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (4/20/2008 3:27:15 AM)

Thanks much for the info.

Randy - nice to meet you today. Gotta admit seeing the Scharnell's all navigate that dust devil without losing a plane was impressive - or just darn lucky!

It became very apparent that if you talk to 3 competitors each with 3 planes there will be 9 differently constructed planes - each an evolution of the previous.

I had long conversations with Jan and Frank IV about "how should a novice build a plane". Don't know whether to overbuild a bit for preservation or build it simple - to the plans. Let's look at control rods. Frank III uses 4-40 for everything. Frank IV uses 4-40 exclusively for the stab/ele and 2-56 for the aileron and throttle. For the aileron - the rod might bend before the servo takes a hit. Also, the idea of using two 2-56 rods for the throttle joined with fuel line to save the throttle linkage on the carb was interesting too.

Do you cover the entire wing with bi-di? Or something less?

Guess I'll have to do a couple of these little birds. [:D]

Bottom line - there's an awful lot to learn. Glad I wasn't planning on flying anything. I will probably have my recently purchased Avenger B2 Open B plane finished by the time your event happens on the 3rd - I'm going to leave it at home and just come to observe focusing on flying technique and building/repair technique and construction and blah blah blah ...

Also - I WILL use carpet tape - none of that wonderful bird repellent for me unless as a result of a midair. [:'(]

Well, back to the basement to put the old CF rod into the wing ...



rrh -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (4/20/2008 11:39:56 PM)

Best way to learn is with your fingers on the sticks [8D]

Glad to meet you, S.

Cut you sooner or later [:@]

r



SeamusG -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (4/21/2008 4:45:44 AM)

I've been having an offline conversation with Quad about learning to fly a "landing-gearless" airplane. My thought was to run as OS25FX without a can (initially). Quad pretty much came out and said that with a can takeoffs in just about any condition (calm to windy) would be pretty easy. Without a can I can expect to have a fairly high number of failed takeoffs, especially in the calm.

What 'cha think?



Montague -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (4/21/2008 3:27:55 PM)

quote:

Best way to learn is with your fingers on the sticks


Amen. Watching helps, but getting out there, even if you only have one plane, will teach you more than anything. Ask a lot of questions, watch how others go abott doing things, and figure out what works for you and what doesn't.

As for takeoffs, not having the can shouldn't be a problem.

Having proper launching technique is critical no matter what you fly. I've thrown every one of my combat planes in at least a 10mph tailwind, and often times a lot more, including Limited B, 2548 and SSC designs, none of which have pipes. (2548 are the worst on downwind launches, the high wingloading makes them really tippy. SSC planes are rough on gusty days because they are so light)

Calm weather should never be a problem launching, tailwinds are a problem. If you can, practice launching in a tailwind, since there always seems to be one on contest day [:D].

The key thing is to make sure you give the plane a good shove. I never ever just let go of the plane or drop it, I always throw it, no matter the weather, no matter the power. When you just let go, you have a moment of Zero airspeed, and that means limited (or zero) control authority. And I think that's asking for trouble, so I always throw for airspeed and control authority.

Personally, I always throw my own airplane. I don't want to have to depend on finding someone at a contest to throw for me, and I don't want someone else to botch my launch. Since I know my planes, I know how to throw them best, and I know whe the feel right and when I need to hold off. It's very rare for me to botch a launch at a contest. (out of trim test flights, sometimes, but even then not that often).

That said, if you are flying with guys who use cans, get a can and use it. Having the slowest plane in the air is intersting, but not the best way to learn combat. And, when you do mount a can, your timing will be thrown off, which is not what a new pilot needs.



SeamusG -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (4/21/2008 4:40:27 PM)

Montague - thanks for your thoughts

If I understand - your last paragraph suggests "know your competition" and what they are flying. If they have cans - then use a can - or be at a deficit. Also, in early stages - don't make changes like adding a can.

Also, the likelihood of having a calm day at our field is slim to none. [:@]



Montague -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (4/21/2008 4:53:39 PM)

Right. It's far better to be going the same speed as the other guys than noticeably faster or slower. This is espeically true when you are just learning how to fly combat.

(there are tactics for flighting and scoring well when you are noticeably slower or faster than the other planes, but that kind of stuff is for another thread on "advanced tactics" later on). Personally, at big contests, I still look first for planes going about my speed, and leave the really fast and really slow guys until later in the heat (with some exceptions, like someone with a weak engine run that is likely to go down, where getting the points before they go out of play is a good thing).

Also, when you are learning to fly combat, you want to concentrate on the flying part. In an ideal world, you pick a proven design that is popular in your area, and build it "stock", get some help setting it up to make sure it flys like it's supposed to, then focus on flying well in contest conditions. Get the plane set right, and keep flying it that way, keep the plane constant and work on your skills in the air. Constantly tinkering with your planes, having 5 different designs that all fly differnetly, and so on just slows you down a bit.

Once you've flown a bit, you'll discover your own tendancies, and you might discover that you want to change airplanes or tweak what you're flying to fit your style. Different planes do fly differently have strenghts and weaknesses, and figureing out what to do to maximize your own flying style is fun. But it's not a great thing to be doing in the first couple of contests, or even first season.

Now, all that said, plenty of guys buy one kit, discover a better flying design early on, and switch early. Often, the old plane is kept as a backup. You do what you have to (and I've been there). But you'll fly better if you can transition to one design that you like (one design per class, of course).



SeamusG -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (4/21/2008 5:05:17 PM)

Air Scharnell (Avenger B2) is local. They are very supportive, good people and pretty darn competitive. For the time being I will stick to that airframe and see how much trouble I can get into.



Montague -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (4/21/2008 5:11:53 PM)

That's a good idea. And frankly, the Avenger is a very competitive plane. The B2 versions that I've seen seem to fly quite well, better than most designs out there.



SeamusG -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (5/6/2008 3:32:11 AM)

Emmmmm,

Maiden voyage of my Open B Avenger B2 today. She weighs in at 3 lb 2 oz. I ran 3 tanks of 15% thru the new OS 25 FX before attempting to fly. She settled in to a full throttle (a bit rich and an untuned AirScharnell combat can) at 18,100 rpm.

I THOUGHT that I had the ailerons set up correctly however I was wrong. On the first flight attempt she had plenty of thrust to start climbing immediately however the left aileron was way up - 2 snap rolls to the left later she had her 1st taste of dirt. 1 broken prop and the basswood holding the wing saddle screws was seriously compromised (but I didn't know this yet). The ailerons were adjusted and away she went on her 2nd try. This plane will be my favorite - for absolutely sure! She performed very well - dead straight rolls left and right, inverted was a breeze, totally off throttle - she just hung in mid air not up, not down, not left, not right - sweet.

There were a handful of aerobatic types watching and they all had big smiles (I interpreted them as envy smiles) - hey, I might even learn how to fly ...

Later, I talked with the Scharnells about repair. The fuse was very compromised due to the damage suffered on the first dirt encounter. CA, epoxy with filler and clamps. I'll look in on the patient tomorrow morning.

My only question - how on Earth do you combat competitors keep the edge doing tight aerobatic maneuvers for 5 minutes?????? I did a couple tight loops, twists and dives then relaxed for just a second - geez, I had to bring the plane back in from the other end of the field.



rrh -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (5/6/2008 5:54:04 PM)

Sounds like you are well on your way to becoming the next local combat hot shot [:D] Congratulations!

quote:

My only question - how on Earth do you combat competitors keep the edge doing tight aerobatic maneuvers for 5 minutes?????? I did a couple tight loops, twists and dives then relaxed for just a second - geez, I had to bring the plane back in from the other end of the field.


Remember when we were chatting at the field this weekend and I was talking about practicing and learning what your plane will do so you can take your eye off it and still know where it will be when you look back? Time to practice, practice, practice [)] Have fun [8D]

r



SeamusG -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (5/6/2008 6:52:24 PM)

Right now my attention is definitely behind the plane. Where did it go when I did that? I understand what it means to be ahead of the plane (car) and knowing what it will be doing shortly. My normal flying (very much the rookie) is still with the plane - not ahead of the plane. Yea, I have my work cut out for me.

Just now I'm waiting for the Zap abada goo II glue to set (Quad recommended using it between the wing saddle and the layered fuse) before playing again. Gotta admit that I'm not too concerned with wind any more :).



j.duncker -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (5/6/2008 8:06:46 PM)

Fly it till you can fly it with out thinking about it or looking at it all the time. It will help if you spend some time setting the control movements to ensure that it will not flick out on full up. Some people do seem to be able to do well with very twitchy set ups but I have been more succesful with a smoother set up.

You need to be able to look at the target while vectoring your own model to where the target will be when it gets there.

But like the other guys say, there is no substitute for actual combat experience. Gotta get used to the adrenaline.



SeamusG -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (5/6/2008 9:12:49 PM)

As Homer Simpson might say "emmm adrenaline - yummmmm".

I used to road race motorcycles - with a standing start. Part of the equation is intensity. It is something that needs to be managed.

I'm looking forward to playing with you guys.



TheRCShack -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (5/7/2008 4:01:40 PM)

[/quote]


My flight box is so heavy I can hardly get it out of the trunk of the car [X(]

[/quote]



That is the truth.It seems to me my flightbox has a few things I do not need but I know if I pull 1 thing out I will need it.I have done it it is a proven fact.when you do not bring something you will need it.When you see a new thing that you may be able to use but do not put it in your flightbox you will need it.

I decided to get a larger Jeep to hold the larger flightbox :) actually I am building a old stainless steel drag race trailer back to new at my brother inlaws to put everything in and tow.

He is right everyone usually has parts and are more than willing to help you get back up.We have a park in Fallston too few use and it is huge. We do the same thing and I have in my travels mixed with a few groups around the USA by invitation and it is/was a blast.



SeamusG -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (5/10/2008 6:55:21 PM)

I experienced the demise of my first combat fuse. Beautiful blue sky and a wing with quite a bit of blue dense foam tint showing thru the covering. I was flying high to avoid other race-track fliers. I got a bug (or something) in my eye - began watering - looked away for the briefest of moments - plane was gone. 30 minutes later I found it with the G10/basswood fuse broken just aft of the engine mount and the engine mount was in 3 pieces. The wing survived nicely. Now I'm on the waiting list for a new fuse kit.

Learned things: 1) make that wing covering as bold as possible and that colored packing tape is not very opaque. 2) fly in close (if possible) 3). Hope that nobody pokes a stick in my eye when flying [8|]

I will post before / after wing covering for your comments.



SeamusG -> RE: High Altitude First Combat Plane (5/10/2008 7:04:27 PM)

Here are the after / before pics of the covering.



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