Silk (Full Version)

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billmod12 -> Silk (4/21/2008 2:40:53 AM)

Can anyone recommend a source for good silk? Thanks Bill




build light -> RE: Silk (4/21/2008 3:43:55 AM)

Yep!
http://www.dharmatrading.com/silk_fabrics.html

You want the Silk Habotai 5mm.

Robert




LesUyeda -> RE: Silk (4/21/2008 3:47:07 PM)

Looks good, but I'm a little concerned about their use of the term "China Silk". What is sold as China Silk at my local fabric shop is 100% polyester. If it is indeed Hobotai silk, 5mm, you are good to go.

Les




billmod12 -> RE: Silk (5/17/2008 1:13:13 AM)

build light and others! I got my silk today from dharma trading. Very good stuff! Thanks Robert, Cheers Bill




build light -> RE: Silk (5/17/2008 3:52:58 AM)

I've never heard a bad word about Dharmatrading.
The fact that they sell silk so cheap compared with some others tends to make the unknowing some doubt whether it is silk or not.
Caresss it. You will know!

Now, lets see some pics of the covering process!

Robert




billmod12 -> RE: Silk (5/17/2008 3:59:14 AM)

Robert, since you turned me on to Dharma here are some other comments I have run across for all to read. Thanks again Bill http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=306078&mesg_id=306078&page=3




John 38 -> RE: Silk (5/17/2008 11:47:54 PM)

I think I have seen references to china silk on this or another forum which indicated you can buy it at Walmarts - stocked as dress lining - at about $2/yard cut to length.

I'm from UK and visited florida recently and checked this out - the super walmarts didn't have it, but the other walmarts did - various colors ( I bought 20 yds for $20 of ivory to simulate cream for vintage ) and widths of either 45" or 60". prices seemed to vary from one store to another.

I understand there is minimal shrinkage as dress lining supplied preshrunk, but as one of above refernces indicate - put it on tight.

this will be my first attempt at "silk" so here's hoping all goes well - destined for a 72" scaled up Southerner. If Ok then going on to a 120" version

John




billmod12 -> RE: Silk (5/18/2008 12:23:47 AM)

John, Often the term " China Silk" is used in dress making and is a light weight polyester lining (organza,etc)used in wedding apparal, curtains and many other sewing crafts. It looks like it would be perfect but it is stiff, very hard to work with, does not have a good shrink factor and is hard to trim. The stuff Dharma sells is REAL Chinese Silk very soft and cuddly and comes in different weights and as Robert "build light" said, the 5mm is what we need. I also found out the "mm" is a term used in measureing the weight of the silk and has nothing to do with millimeters. It only comes in white but the price is RIGHT!!!Cheers Bill




5487 -> RE: Silk (5/18/2008 6:42:04 PM)

Another source for real silk is Thai Silks in Los Altos, CA (www.thaisilks.com). Great prices ($2.50/yd for Habotai 5mm) and superfast/supercheap delivery to Texas.

It passed the "cuddly test".

Harvey




buzzard bait -> RE: Silk (5/18/2008 9:45:47 PM)

Yes, Thai Silks also has the real deal, and prices are great. They carry beautiful colors in 8mm, which is still lighter than Sig Koverall.

I had trouble getting enough shrink. I did it, but it was difficult. Put it on wet and get it as tight as you can. Make sure your dope is not plasticized - you need it to cause more shrinkage.

Jim




5487 -> RE: Silk (5/18/2008 10:17:05 PM)

Jim,

I'm not sure what you mean when you say not to use "plasticized" dope. What is that?

I know that when covering full-sized aircraft to use nitrate dope for the first coupla coats to both shrink the fabric and provide a base for the follow-on butyrate dope coats to stick to? (Nitrate dope is highly flammable, even after curing, so it is used as little as possible. Unfortunately, the nonflammable butyrate won't adhere to fabric very well but it WILL stick to a nitrate layer. Nitrate also has better shrinking qualities.)

Because it is a fire hazzard, nitrate dope is rarely carried by hobby shops these days - only the safer butyrate is (when dope is carried at all!) You can still find nitrate at suppliers such as Aircraft Spruce and Specialty but the unavoidable hazmat shipping fees cost more than the dope itself!

Harvey




John 38 -> RE: Silk (5/18/2008 11:33:02 PM)

billmod
thanks - the earlier references appear to approve of the polyester covering - if I had known of the real silk referred to above and at similar price, I would have gone that route. however having got some polyester- I will give it a try

John




billmod12 -> RE: Silk (5/18/2008 11:59:10 PM)

John, Don't get me wrong it works, just a pain to work with. You may have to glue the edges to get started so you can pull it tight. I have been told that if you wash it and FLUFF it in the dryer it will take some of the stiffness out. I have never tried the washer/dryer trick. I did cover my Lil esquire with it when I recently restored it and converted it to electric. When it is sitting in a 60 degree enviroment it will look slack and terrible but as soon as the sun hits it it will tighten up. Here is a pic in the house at 70 degerees.




buzzard bait -> RE: Silk (5/19/2008 1:49:57 AM)

Harvey, dope usually has a plasticizer that keeps it from shrinking a lot, and also keeps it more flexible. Unfortunately, in model sizes the suppliers don't do a very good job of telling us what's what.

If you buy from the full scale places, like Wick's or Aircraft Spruce, they will specify "tautening" or "non-tautening" (plasticized) for clear nitrate, and probably clear butyrate too. Colored dopes are always plasticized.

Sig Nitrate is plasticized, and Brodak nitrate is too, even more than Sig's. In butyrate, Sig Lite-Kote is plasticized, but Superkote is not. The "Rejuvenator" that Brodak sells is butyrate with a lot of plasticizer.

I've never worried about flammability, with the models. I use about three or four coats of nitrate, followed by butyrate, for glow engines. For diesels I use only nitrate.

To do the Habotai China silk I started with tautening nitrate from Wicks, then followed with butyrate. I think that just using Sig Superkote would probably work too. You really need to get it tight while it is wet, and keep it wet while you stick it down around the edges.

For those using polyester - can you heat-shrink it? If so, I would give up silk and use polyester instead.

Jim




5487 -> RE: Silk (5/19/2008 2:13:25 AM)

Thanks, Jim, that cleared it up nicely.

Harvey




billmod12 -> RE: Silk (5/19/2008 2:33:37 AM)

Jim, I used the polyester (organza) that one time on the Lil esquire. I sparingly glued the material to the lower trailing edge(because the dope would not grab it like silk) and wrapped it around the wing and pulled it tight and pinned it on the top TE. As I pulled out any wrinkles and removed the pins I would sparingly glue the material smearing it with my fingers to the top trailing edge. I had a nice tight fit and as I applied the dope the material would go a little limp and when it dried it would tighten up. It looked really good. That night it got down to about 50 degrees and when I went to the shop the next morning the material was sagging badly. I sat it aside turned on the heat fixed a cup of coffee when the temp got to 70 it was as tight as a drum. It was about 82 today and I turned on the AC in the shop and when it got down to 68 or so it would start to sag. I sat it in the sun and it drew tight in a hurry. It seems to expand and contract quite a bit more than silk. As an experiment I took the stab and put it in front of the AC and made it sag then put the hair dryer to it and tightened it up real tight to see if it would stay. Nope! it went right back to sag at 60 OK at 72. However another note is that if it is 40 outside and the sun is out sit it in the sun it will tighten up. I would use it again if that was all I could get but as long as I can get silk at these prices I will use silk.




John 38 -> RE: Silk (5/19/2008 4:03:44 PM)

Oh Dear!!

I dont like the sound of the temperature effects on polyester

here in the UK, we are more likely to fly at temps down to 40'ish deg F and up to 75'ish with or without the sun at any temp. more common without it!!

I hunted out my notes from earlier forum re polyester ( not easy as I am still in process of reloading my computer following a shutdown/lockup of system which would not clear - fortunately i back up just about everything having been caught out before and having to reformat hard disc )

the notes dont mention temperature problems but do indicate that real silk has a limited life - 5 to 6 years as it breaks down in uv??

the polyester article mentioned using balsa-rite or sig rite? applied to frame and then apply heat when covering and pulling tight just as when covering with solartex . doped with several coats of thinned dope to tighten.

I think I will play safe and do a sample wing on an old model before I try covering a new model with polyester

John





Holderlin -> RE: Silk (5/19/2008 10:08:18 PM)

Polyester/Nylon Covering

Some years ago I covered a Graupner Kwik Fli with rather strong polyester and I am still very much satified with it because of its strength and its "vintage" Look. There are two things you could try:

- Try to get hold of a litre of this special "adhesive dope" the full size homebuilders use when covering their wooden structures. It looks a bit like very thin honey (or very thick dope...) and has to be applied twice until you get a nice shiny surface. Then you lay the polyester covering on your wing or fuselage and gently apply some thinner. Try to pull out any wrinkles while doing this. You will be surprised how much "tack" the now softened adhesive dope develops and how fast it settles again. Later when you have parts where the covering overlaps you have to apply some extra dope first and then use the same technique again.

- After that you can use a heat gun to shrink the "open" parts of you covering.

For the adhesive dope you could e.g. try http://www.friebe.aero/Flugzeugbaumaterial/4,2,21,187,371,0,0,1.html or a product called Aerolon




sotonflyer -> RE: Silk (5/19/2008 11:03:52 PM)


I am a big fan of covering in nylon, but have never tried polyester. However, the only nylon that I can find today is far too heavy weight for my liking. In the past you use to be able to get something called 'light weight nylon' in a good range of colours. I have been able to obtain this from old modellers, eBay etc but it doesn't appear very often. I am now down to a small bit of light weight white and 6ft sq of blue :(




5487 -> RE: Silk (5/20/2008 12:14:19 AM)

Back in the late 60s or early 70s, Royal Products introduced a fabric covering called "Silron" which, as can be guessed, was a silk and rayon blend. I had great success with it and I remember that it was quite popular until Monokote took the hobby by storm. I wonder if something similar to Silron is still available in fabric shops?

Harvey




billmod12 -> RE: Silk (5/20/2008 12:33:41 AM)

Harvey and others, seems I remember something of that nature but I do remember using some kind of rayon stuff from the 5 & dime (damn I am getting old) to do an emergency fuse repair on my Cruiser in 1963. It is still on it today and I see no reason to take it off for the restore/conversion. The wings/stab had silk that went away several years ago but the rayon stuff is still there. I guess you could cover one in anything that as long as you have the power to fly it. But since I am doing electric conversions I kinda want to keep them as light as I can. When converting an old gas plane to electric you have to remember that some of the remnants of all that dope and old covering may still be there. I am going to start covering tomorrow and will post pics of progress. Cheers Bill




5487 -> RE: Silk (5/20/2008 2:02:39 AM)

Bill,

My original 1970 Falcon 56 (long retired) is still covered with Silron but it is far from airworthy as it tears very easily now. Since the silk component is organic, I suspect that it has rotted over the years even though the rayon component might still be good. Nonetheless, the covering is still tight (where it's not torn :-) after 38 years and has never exhibited the loosening due to cold temperatures that was mentioned of polyester in earlier posts.

I remember that Silron was pretty easy to put on and resulted in a quality covering job that this neophyte didn't expect on a first attempt. It would be nice to find something like Silron again.

Good luck with your covering job tomorrow.

Harvey




oldernut -> RE: Silk (5/22/2008 8:56:54 PM)

Hey Bill,
I'm dieing of curiosty. How is the silk covering job on the LW trainer coming along?

Oldernut




billmod12 -> RE: Silk (5/22/2008 11:47:43 PM)

Here it is !! Not bad after a 45 years! As long as I can get this silk I will never do any other type of covering. I have never expeienced any thing else and am to old, fat, and lazy to learn. Hell! I never could iron anyway! Cheers Bill




buzzard bait -> RE: Silk (5/23/2008 3:34:51 AM)

Beautiful job, Bill! Looks like you had no trouble getting it tight.
Jim




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