CD's (Full Version)

All Forums >> [RC Airplanes] >> AMA Discussions



Message

funflyerf4 -> CD's (4/22/2008 1:58:32 AM)

What is the difference between a CD and a CD for a turbine waiver.Can any CD sign off a person for a turbine waiver?



pilott28 -> RE: CD's (4/22/2008 2:55:35 AM)

The difference between a CD and a Turbine CD, is that a Turbine CD not only holds the CD designation but also possesses a turbine waiver.

If you are applying for a fixed wing turbine waiver, you need two signatures, one from any waiver holder and the other from any Turbine CD.

There is also a small list of Designated Turbine CD's. See AMA pub 510k. The folks on this list are the only ones that can sign off on "rotary" turbine waivers.



funflyerf4 -> RE: CD's (4/22/2008 8:28:24 PM)

I'm allready a turbine waiverd pilot if I took the test for a cd then I would be able to sign off people for a waiver?Not that I want to be a cd but am curious as to how it works.

Thanks



pilott28 -> RE: CD's (4/23/2008 5:26:19 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: funflyerf4

I'm allready a turbine waiverd pilot if I took the test for a cd then I would be able to sign off people for a waiver?Not that I want to be a cd but am curious as to how it works.

Thanks


You are correct ... if you complete the qualifications for a CD and you hold a waiver, you can be the "CD" signature on a fixed wing waiver app. A second signature from any other waiver holder would also be required.



busted2props -> RE: CD's (4/25/2008 4:41:23 AM)

Nevermind. Wanted to know how much experience is required for stuff like this.[:D]



pilott28 -> RE: CD's (4/25/2008 12:45:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: busted2props

Nevermind. Wanted to know how much experience is required for stuff like this.[:D]


The theory is that you should have a fair amount of experience, enough to be a Contest Director for an event. As part of the process, you need two other CD's to sign off on your application, certifying that they think you are qualified to fulfill this role.

There is some responsibility and risk that comes with the CD waiver signoff. If you sign someone off who is really not qualified, and they go out and hurt someone, there is a high probability that the lawyers will find you.



littlecrankshaf -> RE: CD's (4/25/2008 5:42:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pilott28



There is some responsibility and risk that comes with the CD waiver signoff. If you sign someone off who is really not qualified, and they go out and hurt someone, there is a high probability that the lawyers will find you.


or

There is some responsibility and risk that comes with the CD waiver signoff. If you sign someone off and they go out and hurt someone, there is a high probability that the lawyers will find you.

The term “Qualified" will likely be determined during any litigation where serious injury takes place... your friends may also be there giving their unique and subjective observations as well.

The waiver system allows the diffusion of personal responsibility.

Many look at the waiver system as just the means of qualifying for turbine operation but it is much more than that…technically turbines are prohibited within the AMA but that prohibition can be waived providing someone will sign on the appropriate dotted lines…



busted2props -> RE: CD's (4/25/2008 9:43:33 PM)

PILOTT28 and LCS,
Thanks for the info. Kinda thought it worked that way. Goes down all the streets to the original signature. HMMMM...Makes ya think, don't it?????????[8|]
(Don't it was intentional.)



ira d -> RE: CD's (4/26/2008 6:05:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

quote:

ORIGINAL: pilott28



There is some responsibility and risk that comes with the CD waiver signoff. If you sign someone off who is really not qualified, and they go out and hurt someone, there is a high probability that the lawyers will find you.


or

There is some responsibility and risk that comes with the CD waiver signoff. If you sign someone off and they go out and hurt someone, there is a high probability that the lawyers will find you.

The term “Qualified" will likely be determined during any litigation where serious injury takes place... your friends may also be there giving their unique and subjective observations as well.

The waiver system allows the diffusion of personal responsibility.

Many look at the waiver system as just the means of qualifying for turbine operation but it is much more than that…technically turbines are prohibited within the AMA but that prohibition can be waived providing someone will sign on the appropriate dotted lines…



In the 15 or so years the turbine wavier system has been in place I have never heard
of a CD being sued has anyone else?



littlecrankshaf -> RE: CD's (4/26/2008 6:47:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ira d


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

quote:

ORIGINAL: pilott28



There is some responsibility and risk that comes with the CD waiver signoff. If you sign someone off who is really not qualified, and they go out and hurt someone, there is a high probability that the lawyers will find you.


or

There is some responsibility and risk that comes with the CD waiver signoff. If you sign someone off and they go out and hurt someone, there is a high probability that the lawyers will find you.

The term “Qualified" will likely be determined during any litigation where serious injury takes place... your friends may also be there giving their unique and subjective observations as well.

The waiver system allows the diffusion of personal responsibility.

Many look at the waiver system as just the means of qualifying for turbine operation but it is much more than that…technically turbines are prohibited within the AMA but that prohibition can be waived providing someone will sign on the appropriate dotted lines…



In the 15 or so years the turbine wavier system has been in place I have never heard
of a CD being sued has anyone else?

Never have either and probably will not ever. Just some scare tactics are overly used...this suing thing is used all too often to justify most any restriction...it works quite well. Heck, AMA likely owes its whole existence to the concept.



BarracudaHockey -> RE: CD's (4/26/2008 1:07:32 PM)

quote:

...this suing thing is used all too often to justify most any restriction...it works quite well. Heck, AMA likely owes its whole existence to the concept.


Hmm.....I was under the impression that is was a way to organize modelers for the common good. To present ourselves as a body to goverment agencies to get the frequencies we use, to organize events, to communicate with each other, and to promote the hobbby.



littlecrankshaf -> RE: CD's (4/26/2008 5:35:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarracudaHockey


Hmm.....I was under the impression that is was a way to organize modelers for the common good. To present ourselves as a body to goverment agencies to get the frequencies we use, to organize events, to communicate with each other, and to promote the hobbby.

That is what is indeed openly touted but it is also a greater truth that without the spell of "fear factor" instilled and the provided "antidote" of insurance by the AMA it would be a certainty that AMA would not have survived until today. I am one that regrets deeply that the AMA only survives due to insurance because of the fear of modeling. I am further dismayed and sadden that few recognize the truth… Most or happy to perpetuate the “spell” and wonder why the hobby lags while touting “Aero modeling is a worthwhile activity”. The “spell” had the intended effect…the survival of AMA is proof of its success.

I may be unusual in that I truly believe the hobby, although different would continue without the AMA. I base that belief on the fact that I built and flew models long before I knew about AMA and its benefits. Yes, there are benefits. We just need to learn how to use them properly. That is why I counter those that hinge what they say on fear………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….That is not the right answer. We need to move from there.



804 -> RE: CD's (4/26/2008 6:32:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarracudaHockey


Hmm.....I was under the impression that is was a way to organize modelers for the common good. To present ourselves as a body to goverment agencies to get the frequencies we use, to organize events, to communicate with each other, and to promote the hobbby.

That is what is indeed openly touted but it is also a greater truth that without the spell of "fear factor" instilled and the provided "antidote" of insurance by the AMA it would be a certainty that AMA would not have survived until today. I am one that regrets deeply that the AMA only survives due to insurance because of the fear of modeling. I am further dismayed and sadden that few recognize the truth… Most or happy to perpetuate the “spell” and wonder why the hobby lags while touting “Aero modeling is a worthwhile activity”. The “spell” had the intended effect…the survival of AMA is proof of its success.

I may be unusual in that I truly believe the hobby, although different would continue without the AMA. I base that belief on the fact that I built and flew models long before I knew about AMA and its benefits. Yes, there are benefits. We just need to learn how to use them properly. That is why I counter those that hinge what they say on fear………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….That is not the right answer. We need to move from there.




I am suspending my LCS ban for a short time here to un-twist and de-spin the above.

Today, you must be protected from the sharks swimming in circles around people engaging in any "potentially hazardous" activity.
AMA has simply made it easy, cheap, and uniform(for administrative purposes for clubs, individuals, and governments) to insure against legal problems. Insurance may be the largest factor for joining AMA, but due to today's circumstances, not because AMA has steered it that way.

You , o' sage one, may deny that, but your head is clearly buried neck deep in sand if you can't recognize that AMA has done far more as a large group than a nationwide collection of individuals could ever hope to.

Yes, you truly are unusual, but be that as it may, the fact is we would have far fewer places to fly, far fewer planes to fly, and most likely, far fewer people enjoying this hobby.

And aside and maybe above all that, it still is everything BarracudaHockey mentioned above.



BarracudaHockey -> RE: CD's (4/26/2008 7:46:38 PM)

Ah! A well thought out and lucid post (and completely true). So rare in a discussion of the AMA. [sm=thumbs_up.gif][sm=thumbs_up.gif][sm=thumbs_up.gif]



KidEpoxy -> RE: CD's (4/27/2008 4:07:46 AM)

quote:

AMA has simply made it easy, cheap, and uniform(for administrative purposes for clubs, individuals, and governments) to insure against legal problems


When you say "uniform",
you are equating the PPP one half of one million coverage with the multimillion AMA coverage?
That kind of uniformity? Everyone is the same, except for the ones that arent.



804 -> RE: CD's (4/27/2008 4:37:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: KidEpoxy

quote:

AMA has simply made it easy, cheap, and uniform(for administrative purposes for clubs, individuals, and governments) to insure against legal problems


When you say "uniform",
you are equating the PPP one half of one million coverage with the multimillion AMA coverage?
That kind of uniformity? Everyone is the same, except for the ones that arent.


Nope, not what I'm saying.[8|]



BarracudaHockey -> RE: CD's (4/27/2008 12:58:03 PM)

Funflyer, appologies for your simple question getting hijacked and degraded. I hope by the time you get up and check in on this it will have been cleaned up.



STLPilot -> RE: CD's (4/27/2008 1:15:44 PM)

quote:

That is what is indeed openly touted but it is also a greater truth that without the spell of "fear factor" instilled and the provided "antidote" of insurance by the AMA it would be a certainty that AMA would not have survived until today. I am one that regrets deeply that the AMA only survives due to insurance because of the fear of modeling.
Well I know a few other aviation based organizations that survive quite well without the insurance benefits included in the price of membership. It's real easy to say that the AMA would not be here if there was no insurance, that's because you have no data to back it up, it's just a hunch.

How do these other organization stay afloat without insurance? All of them provide magazines. All of the provide internal support and liaisons to a higher authorities to keep their organizations where they are today, safe and happpy. All of them provide event sanctions (yes, sanctions don't always need to have insuance included) and an array of benefits to their enthusiasts.

So who would keep the restrictions away from the aeromodelers if the day ever came there was no AMA, you? There would only be a pathway so guys like Chuck Schumer and Co whom presume our hobby "could be" dangerous, without some kind of National body (150,000 members) to protect it, in his case would be 100% right. Members would remain members because it's been proven to work in other hobby orgs that DO NOT provide insurance, the data is alive and working. AMA does not put any kind of fear into anyone. Headlines and these threads put in the fear .... but when I goto to the field, I see nothing but pleasantries.



804 -> RE: CD's (4/27/2008 3:43:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BarracudaHockey

Funflyer, appologies for your simple question getting hijacked and degraded. I hope by the time you get up and check in on this it will have been cleaned up.



Indeed.

If anyone is interested in the OP's original question, go to AMA website

At bottom of home page, click on Rules under Competition/Events

Then click on AMA Documents PDF.

Scroll down to Section 510.

You'll find all the info on turbines, and names of qualified people to sign off by state.

Sorry I could not provide a link, coudn't make it work.



RCKen -> RE: CD's (4/27/2008 4:05:28 PM)

Gentlemen,
I've had to go in and clean up this thread. Once again, the personal attacks and comments need to stop. Talks of how you have blocked each other, and now you're unblocked, block back on, etc....... has nothing to do with the thread topic. Honestly guys, it comes off sounding like kids on a play ground. Sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "nah, nah, nah, nah, I can't hear you". It's time to grow up guys as this petty bickering has no place in an adult discussion forum. If you don't want to read posts that somebody makes then simply block them, but don't go for the "shock factor" and announce it here in the open thread. If this continues it may be time to start handing out some Moderated Status to those that can't keep the discussion on topic.

Ken



littlecrankshaf -> RE: CD's (4/27/2008 6:31:14 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: RCKen

has nothing to do with the thread topic. Honestly guys, it comes off sounding like kids on a play ground.
Ken



Thanks Ken. I apologize for participating in the "play ground".

Of course we could always just point questions and concerns to the AMA or AMA website for answers...One big sticky and dispense with the rest of the forum... but we are being allowed to discuss aspects of AMA here and as always there are two sides. There will always be those that will always blindly and loyally subscribe to whatever the AMA promulgates and there will be others that have a few issues with one aspect or another...that is fine also.

Now with all that said and since we have allowed much philosophical discussion of a few here I am hoping I can be afforded a chance to highlight some problems with the turbine waiver system as I see it.


First off, the waiver system perpetuates the good ole boy system. I have personally witnessed waivers given to pilots that can barely keep an ugly stick in the air while much better pilots are made to beg. More importantly this waiver system has nothing in it to insure Turbines are flown in appropriate locations. I have witnessed turbines flown in some very high risk (of the unaware) locations at the discretion of those that otherwise openly and publicly admonish others about safety...simply ludicrous to say the least.

I am for scraping the current system and instead of the signing off of pilots, install a new system where the flying fields are approved and authorized for turbine use. Some sites may actually be fine during some months of the year and not ok at other times. To sum it up...the pilot status is a much lesser concern than the location chosen to fly turbines. The pilot's ability is pretty much self righting...if they truly can't fly a turbine it won't take long and they will be out of business while even the best pilots pose great risk in a bad location.





ira d -> RE: CD's (4/28/2008 12:26:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlecrankshaf



quote:

ORIGINAL: RCKen

has nothing to do with the thread topic. Honestly guys, it comes off sounding like kids on a play ground.
Ken



Thanks Ken. I apologize for participating in the "play ground".

Of course we could always just point questions and concerns to the AMA or AMA website for answers...One big sticky and dispense with the rest of the forum... but we are being allowed to discuss aspects of AMA here and as always there are two sides. There will always be those that will always blindly and loyally subscribe to whatever the AMA promulgates and there will be others that have a few issues with one aspect or another...that is fine also.

Now with all that said and since we have allowed much philosophical discussion of a few here I am hoping I can be afforded a chance to highlight some problems with the turbine waiver system as I see it.


First off, the waiver system perpetuates the good ole boy system. I have personally witnessed waivers given to pilots that can barely keep an ugly stick in the air while much better pilots are made to beg. More importantly this waiver system has nothing in it to insure Turbines are flown in appropriate locations. I have witnessed turbines flown in some very high risk (of the unaware) locations at the discretion of those that otherwise openly and publicly admonish others about safety...simply ludicrous to say the least.

I am for scraping the current system and instead of the signing off of pilots, install a new system where the flying fields are approved and authorized for turbine use. Some sites may actually be fine during some months of the year and not ok at other times. To sum it up...the pilot status is a much lesser concern than the location chosen to fly turbines. The pilot's ability is pretty much self righting...if they truly can't fly a turbine it won't take long and they will be out of business while even the best pilots pose great risk in a bad location.






LCS I think you make some good points in what you say especialy the part about
approval of certain locations for turbines and not some others.



busted2props -> RE: CD's (5/4/2008 10:53:05 AM)

I echo the sentiments of LCS. The pilot is not always in question, the flying site must also be suitable! Just because you are signed off for turbine, does not mean you can handle the confines of the flying field...Makes ya think,huh?



BarracudaHockey -> RE: CD's (5/4/2008 12:30:29 PM)

Ken didn't clean up the thread because people are debating two sides of an issue, he cleaned it up because for some reason it can't be done without taking pot shots at the people posting thier opinions. Sadly the airwaves are full of such garbage for the last several months until November, I'd really rather see better here at RCU.

That aside.

How does one rate a field for turbine use? Or giant scale anything for that matter? Where do we draw the lines? If the model is equipped with brakes if its a short runway? By wingspan, engine displacement (or pounds of thrust), model weight?



busted2props -> RE: CD's (5/4/2008 1:25:46 PM)

I don't know. Those are good arguments. I wish I had an answer. I would just go by the pilot's qualifications. Some pilots can not even handle a 1.20 size aircraft and have turbine waivers. Won't call names, etc...But it is from personal experience.
Not Mean Monte here, just- Monte-

Time for me to retire and get more involved in Radio Control Airplanes!!!![sm=regular_smile.gif]




Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




SITE MAP!   : :   FORUM RULES

© 2001 - 2007 24-7 RC, LLC, all rights reserved.
0.453125