Dual Received (Full Version)

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DAN_CFIIMEI -> Dual Received (4/22/2008 11:54:43 PM)

Ok a question. With only being a CFI for a bit with primary students I haven't heard of this one before and the Chief CFI at my flight school is gone, so I have a question. I have a student that wants to do the ground ref. manuvers from the right seat of a C172/R. I am ok with it, but can I allow him to mark it as Dual time? Any help would be appreciated, I am trying to find the regs in the FARs.



divergoff -> RE: Dual Received (4/23/2008 12:15:49 AM)

sure you can log it as dual to him you are still pic but if he's flying it does not matter which seat right or left though it does not make sense to do much work from the right seat but it makes no difference on if you can log it as dual instruction or not.



DAN_CFIIMEI -> RE: Dual Received (4/23/2008 12:18:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: divergoff

sure you can log it as dual to him you are still pic but if he's flying it does not matter which seat right or left though it does not make sense to do much work from the right seat but it makes no difference on if you can log it as dual instruction or not.


This student has a tendency to look at the instruments the entire time and not out the window. I have been trying to teach him to look outside, listen to the sound of the engine (as to climbing/descending) to do it. This was his question, I just needed an answer, I just wonder how a student would do without having the instruments in front of him on departure and approach/landing.



Robinaire -> RE: Dual Received (4/23/2008 12:36:45 AM)

I don't recall a specific reg, but I believe he must take all dual in the solo position, which is the left seat. Why does he want to do that in a 172/ and why the right seat? Obviously he has already soloed. I would NOT do it, because the examiner for his ticket will be in the right seat, and he will bomb it because he won't have the correct perceptions.Perhaps he has some nefarious scheme inmind, like taking friends out illegally and giving them lessons!!! It's been done before! Impress on him the examiner/check ride bit. Lee Robinson 20 yrs cfi.



DAN_CFIIMEI -> RE: Dual Received (4/23/2008 12:44:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Robinaire

Perhaps he has some nefarious scheme inmind, like taking friends out illegally and giving them lessons!!! It's been done before! Impress on him the examiner/check ride bit. Lee Robinson 20 yrs cfi.


Yeah I had a student already pull that on me this year. Not happening again. Needless to say it was the FAA that caught the kid this summer and he was only 16 on a solo. You do have that correct, too, the view from the left set, maybe I'll just coer them in a way he can't see them and I can.



cjtyped -> RE: Dual Received (4/23/2008 12:59:03 AM)

Ther is no regulation that says the pilot has to fly from the left seat.
If you're concerned about the student not seeing the instruments, take a piece of cardboard, rough cut to cover the instruments, and have the student do the maneuvers without.
the regulations don't say a lot of things...like coming right out and saying you must have current charts ( unless you fly a turbine aircraft or under part 135), they don't come right out and say you have to land and takeoff from a bona fide runway either.



divergoff -> RE: Dual Received (4/23/2008 3:27:00 AM)

You can always use those suction cup things that we love to use when doing partial panel instrument work, just need to get a couple. I had the same problem when I started taking lessons b/c I've been flying my whole life with my dad. So when I was short and dad would let me fly some I'd be mostly on instruments. My instructor had me do a lot of ground reference stuff and used the instrument blockers on the altimeter and DG often. Another thing he had me do was to fly to landmarks, w/o using anything but visual (outside) references.



FLYBOY -> RE: Dual Received (4/23/2008 3:35:06 AM)

Yes, he can fly from either seat, but I wouldn't do it with a pre-private. I would cover up all the instruments and teach him to fly by only sound and sight without them. My students all learn without them first, then we incorperate them as needed. Makes better pilots out of them later in their career.

Good luck! You will get him going.



DAN_CFIIMEI -> RE: Dual Received (4/23/2008 3:57:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FLYBOY

Yes, he can fly from either seat, but I wouldn't do it with a pre-private. I would cover up all the instruments and teach him to fly by only sound and sight without them. My students all learn without them first, then we incorperate them as needed. Makes better pilots out of them later in their career.

Good luck! You will get him going.


I wish I could just get him to solo first. Ground Reference is one of the parts required for solo. He knows his stuff- knowledge wise- but when it comes to the visual effect, he lacks, so he should be a good instrument pilot. I sent him home one day to read just a part of the Jep. book and part of the ASA Flight School book, he read them all 2 days later I quizzed him and he knew almost everything that I asked him directly from the books and random questions- like the examiner. Just on a tough time- I have 1 ME Com. student, 1 Instrument Student, and 4 private students, and then 1 student who wants me to teach him the PP ME without the single engine portion, so get his initial PP in a ME aircraft (which I won't do). The school I work for has 1 Seminole, 3 Duchesses, 2 C172/R, 3 C172/N, 1 C172/Q, 2 C182/RG, 1 Piper Arrow, 5 C152 and 1 C150. Only 1 of the duchesses work and only one of the C172/R s work, but the GPS database is out of date for IFR, the remainder working are 1 C172/Q, 2 C152, 1 C182/RG. The others are all out on their 100 hour, Annual, or other maintenance problem. So I only got 13 hours this last week in good weather, too as an instructor. At least I still am on the charter department getting a few extra hours especially working the fire watch line. Just Venting.



FLYBOY -> RE: Dual Received (4/23/2008 4:15:04 AM)

The guy I used to fly jets for got his Private in a twin. He won't get in a single. Don't write that one off. He may have a good reason and enough money to back him up.



DAN_CFIIMEI -> RE: Dual Received (4/23/2008 4:19:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FLYBOY

The guy I used to fly jets for got his Private in a twin. He won't get in a single. Don't write that one off. He may have a good reason and enough money to back him up.


Do you- I am going to imagine you are a pilot- actually believe it is safe though to teach somebody everything in that, or do some of both? My flight school wouldn't let me when I was younger and now I instruct for them. They do now, but have never had anyone do it, they had somebody start, but they stopped and went to single engine. The manuvers are practically the exact the same, just everything happens faster. I will be becoming assistant chief instructor in a week so then I will only get about 2 primary students, the rest instrument and commercial/ATP. After that guy is gone then I am the chief, so I have to think about everything in a wide view.



woopie -> RE: Dual Received (5/14/2008 5:41:27 PM)

Take the student on a - no moon - clear night flight. Find a clear practice area and give him the controls. After a few minutes, if he's comfortable, shut off the insturment panel lights and see how he does.

The reason I mention this is because it can be a great confidence builder. While I have my liscense, I had to do a night flight check ride. During the take-off, at the point of rotation, my instructor turned off the instrument panel lights. It was a bit of a surprise, but I continued while explaining what I would do to correct, or not, the condition. He was satisified and we continued the complete check ride without panel lights. On landing I held my little flashlight between my teeth, but never turned it on. I was a great opportunity to discover that I had a pretty good grip about how the aircraft feels.

Just a thought.



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