Overpowering a Trainer  
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Tower Hobbies
Enter up to 4 keywords or Tower stock numbers
Logged in as Guest



Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
       

All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> Kit Building >> Overpowering a Trainer
Page: [1] 2   next >   >>  

Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Overpowering a Trainer - 4/23/2008 7:41:14 PM   
manks


 

Posts: 222
Joined: 2/26/2004
From: Mississauga, ON, CANADA
Status: offline
Hi guys, I am playing around with an old trainer I have, bashing it into a Stick more or less. It is a PT -40 that I converted into a tail dragger, and I have now cut the wing in half and taken all the dihedral out of it. I have a spare OS .61 SF that will fit into the front of the plane. I am doing this because I am advancing beyond my current Trainer's capabilities, I want something a bit more challenging and fun to fly, but I want to keep my old trainer around because I do enjoy the ease of flying it.

Here is my main question, will that .61 just be too much for the airframe? I built this plane a while ago, it is well put together, but not a ton of flight time, I know it is not designed for a .61 but the motor fits into the frame, now I am wondering, should I do it? Will I have too much speed and overstress the airframe ect.

I would like to get your thoughts on putting that much power in a .40 trainer.


Thanks

Manks
       Post #: 1

RE: Overpowering a Trainer - 4/23/2008 8:56:18 PM   
vicman



Posts: 6183
Joined: 12/8/2002
From: Valdese, NC, USA
Status: offline
It will be a lot faster than if it had a .40LA in the nose but not a speed ship by any means. You will also have great take off run and vertical. Be careful how much weight you add. You may end up putting so much ballast in the tail to get it to balance that you end up giving all the power back just to haul around the lead.
The air frame will only go so fast and then thats it.[)]


_____________________________

Bigger Badder Meaner Faster!
Revver Brotherhood & NMPRA #41

(in reply to manks)
       Post #: 2

RE: Overpowering a Trainer - 4/24/2008 1:42:33 AM   
Ed_Moorman



Posts: 3683
Joined: 1/5/2002
From: Shalimar, FL, USA
Status: offline
OK, Manks,

Here's what can or will happen when you put a .61 into a .40 trainer.

Strength:
1. Rubber banded on wing. Not very strong. If you yank hard, you can lift the leading edge of the wing. It will scare the hack out of you. In particular, install the rubber bands from FRONT TO BACK. This stretches them tighter in the front so they hold the leading edge down better.
2. You wing has balsa spars, more than likely. Making a turn or pitch maneuver at a higher speed puts more g's on the plane. There is a possibility that you can break the wing.
3. It has a thin wing. Sticks tend to have a fairly thick, symmetrical airfoil, making then inherently stronger than a thin wing.
4. Center joint. Most trainers do not have a big wing joiner. You need to use fiberglass cloth 4" wide or so and 30-minute epoxy on the top and bottom of the joint for added strength.
5. Stab & fin. Can be easy to break off on a trainer with high g maneuvers. I recommend guy wires. You can use weed eater line. It's cheap, easy and plenty strong enough.
Servos and pushrods. You standard seervos will be OK. Check the pushrods to make sure they can't flex and allow the controls the straighten out.
6. As has been mentioned, reinforce the firewall using 30-minute epoxy. the 30-minute kind soaks in more and gives a stronger bond. Use tri-stock or 1/4" square in the corners.

Aerodynamics:
1. Flat bottom airfoil. As you increase the speed, your plane will tend to climb. When you reduce power to land, you'll need to hold a good bit of up elevator or retrim. I recommend raising the trailing edge of the wing with 2 popsicle sticks to reduce the incidence and alleviate the clim.
2. Your CG may be out. Rather than add weight, move the elevator and rudder servos to the read fuselage. Cut a hole, add a little piece of ply at each end and screw them in place. Doesn't have to be fancy, just has to hold.
3. Wing tips. If your trainer has plastic or wood wing tips that are beveled upwards, take them off. They act like more dihedral, which you don't need.
4. Flutter. Keep an ear open for a buzz. Most of the time it is the aileron tips. Try cutting the tips off at an angle starting 3" in from the tip to a point at the tip.

Engine:
1. Use a low pitch prop. No more than a 6, but a 4 pitch is better. It will give you the climb, but not the speed which will stress the plane. A low pitch prop will also help you slow down for landing.
2. Use power management like the guys with the really big planes. Half power in level flight and full power for straight up climbs.

Other:
1. You may need a longer landing gear or larger wheels for prop clearance.
2. Since you are changing to a tail dragger, don't glue in the new gear block with CA. Use epoxy and tri-stock in the corners.


_____________________________

Ed Moorman, AMA 553, KD4QBM, Revver Bro #156
R/C Report Magazine, Fun Aerobatics Column

(in reply to vicman)
       Post #: 3

RE: Overpowering a Trainer - 4/24/2008 11:35:30 PM   
JamesDL


 

Posts: 72
Joined: 2/1/2005
From: Coram, NY, USA
Status: offline
I have a .46AX on my PT-40 and I can go straight up indefinitely with it. Not sure what more you would want from a .61.

I made mine with a bolt-on wing. I believe the spars on the PT-40 are spruce, they definitely feel denser and heavier than balsa. The shear webbing is horizontal grain, however... I wish I knew about vertical grain webs when I was building the thing.

James

(in reply to Ed_Moorman)
       Post #: 4

RE: Overpowering a Trainer - 4/24/2008 11:47:24 PM   
HollywoodHitman



Posts: 102
Joined: 3/3/2005
From: AbbotsfordBC, CANADA
Status: offline
Do eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet. Do eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!!!

_____________________________

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.....

(in reply to JamesDL)
       Post #: 5

RE: Overpowering a Trainer - 4/25/2008 2:03:32 AM   
manks


 

Posts: 222
Joined: 2/26/2004
From: Mississauga, ON, CANADA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JamesDL

I have a .46AX on my PT-40 and I can go straight up indefinitely with it. Not sure what more you would want from a .61.

I made mine with a bolt-on wing. I believe the spars on the PT-40 are spruce, they definitely feel denser and heavier than balsa. The shear webbing is horizontal grain, however... I wish I knew about vertical grain webs when I was building the thing.

James


Well I am trying to turn a trainer in to a much more aerobatic plane. I want to use the 61 because I do not have a spare 46 to put into it.

I have a 46 FX sitting in another PT-40 it runs well, but there not unlimited vertical with it.

I have made a decision that I am going to make the mods and put the motor in the plane, I will be gentle with it and see what happens. Will let you know how it goes

(in reply to JamesDL)
       Post #: 6

RE: Overpowering a Trainer - 4/25/2008 3:26:34 PM   
carlosponti



Posts: 1045
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Moore, OK, USA
Status: offline
the trainer i learned on was an arf had a supertiger 61 on it and i had to put lead in the nose to balance. it had a bolt on wing. if i were to try making a sport aerobat i would take out dihedral have a bolt on wing and split the difference between 40 and 60 and get a 50. then the difference in weight is going to be about the weight of you battery so you can mount it where you need the balance. clip the wings acouple of bays and increase control throws a bit. its amazing what can be done with a trainer if you are kit building it. you can get it to do just about anything.

(in reply to manks)
       Post #: 7

RE: Overpowering a Trainer - 4/25/2008 6:02:31 PM   
RegFlys


 

Posts: 12
Joined: 4/24/2008
From: , WI, USA
Status: offline
Good luck and have fun, absolutely do it and have a blast. The SF's are great engines, one of the better O.S. has made. Just use good throttle management and have a blast. Don't come in on a downwind dive pass and pull up too hard. [)] Add a few more #64's, watch the prop clearance , balance her proper, and just have fun. No need for any long drawn out mods. I am always for taking what you have, and making it last even when you outgrow a plane, changing engines, etc, and fly her until she gives up, then buy a new plane for the next level of experience.
Peace Out. Reg

(in reply to carlosponti)
       Post #: 8

RE: Overpowering a Trainer - 4/25/2008 7:05:04 PM   
manks


 

Posts: 222
Joined: 2/26/2004
From: Mississauga, ON, CANADA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlosponti

the trainer i learned on was an arf had a supertiger 61 on it and i had to put lead in the nose to balance. it had a bolt on wing. if i were to try making a sport aerobat i would take out dihedral have a bolt on wing and split the difference between 40 and 60 and get a 50. then the difference in weight is going to be about the weight of you battery so you can mount it where you need the balance. clip the wings acouple of bays and increase control throws a bit. its amazing what can be done with a trainer if you are kit building it. you can get it to do just about anything.


The whole point of using a .61 is because I have a spare one, and do not really want to buy a new motor. If the plane is way too over powered I will strip the motor out and try to do something else. If I overstress the plane and it goes it, I just hope I can find it. I am spending a ton of time right now making the wing very strong to handle the extra stress I think it will be ok - I will take is very easy to start - should be a lot of fun playing the role of test pilot

(in reply to carlosponti)
       Post #: 9

RE: Overpowering a Trainer - 4/25/2008 8:59:25 PM   
carlosponti



Posts: 1045
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Moore, OK, USA
Status: offline
i think most of the problem with putting a 60 on a 40 sized airframe when it comes to a trainer isnt structural its balance. the supertiger 61 is 8 ounces heavier than the 45 for instance. i think you will find it will work just fine you just have to tinker with the balance a little. could also move servos into the tail etc for more weight to balance with. i frankly have only had one plane i used lead to balance with. i do everything i can to get balance with stuff that needs to be on the plane. trainers i think are overbuilt to begin with.

ps the OS 61 SF i think was only 19 ounces so you might not have balance problems after all with the battery balanced aft of the cg.

(in reply to manks)
       Post #: 10

RE: Overpowering a Trainer - 4/25/2008 11:44:54 PM   
flyX


 

Posts: 623
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: el centro, CA, USA
Status: offline
it won't be too much ...it won't need the regular wings to fly...
just the two that's mounted to on the engine will do
it'll hang on the prop, you can hover on it all day long
You don't need to go fast to hover.

Just back off of the throttle. Fly it around at 1/2 throttle... i dunno
or use lower pitch props.

well yeah after a while didn't your instructor told you to back off of the throttle on the second half of the loop
to make it look purdier on a .40 to begine with anyway.

Just don't snap it at full throttle or when in a decend.

(in reply to carlosponti)
       Post #: 11

RE: Overpowering a Trainer - 4/26/2008 1:20:03 PM   
manks


 

Posts: 222
Joined: 2/26/2004
From: Mississauga, ON, CANADA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: flyX

it won't be too much ...it won't need the regular wings to fly...
just the two that's mounted to on the engine will do
it'll hang on the prop, you can hover on it all day long
You don't need to go fast to hover.

Just back off of the throttle. Fly it around at 1/2 throttle... i dunno
or use lower pitch props.

well yeah after a while didn't your instructor told you to back off of the throttle on the second half of the loop
to make it look purdier on a .40 to begine with anyway.

Just don't snap it at full throttle or when in a decend.


I have really spent some time and effort making the new wing joint as strong as possible, it looks really good right now. I put three plywood braces in the joint, filled the gap with good, strong balsa and 30 min epoxy, then filled any small gaps with expoy and micro balloons, sanded it down and put a four inch wide strip of thick fiberglass cloth covered with 4 hour epoxy. The wing will hold for sure. That said, I will not be snapping the plane around at full throttle!

IT is fun doing the mods!

(in reply to flyX)
       Post #: 12

RE: Overpowering a Trainer - 4/26/2008 10:50:02 PM   
Ed Cregger



Posts: 7734
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Ringgold, GA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: manks


quote:

ORIGINAL: JamesDL

I have a .46AX on my PT-40 and I can go straight up indefinitely with it. Not sure what more you would want from a .61.

I made mine with a bolt-on wing. I believe the spars on the PT-40 are spruce, they definitely feel denser and heavier than balsa. The shear webbing is horizontal grain, however... I wish I knew about vertical grain webs when I was building the thing.

James


Well I am trying to turn a trainer in to a much more aerobatic plane. I want to use the 61 because I do not have a spare 46 to put into it.

I have a 46 FX sitting in another PT-40 it runs well, but there not unlimited vertical with it.

I have made a decision that I am going to make the mods and put the motor in the plane, I will be gentle with it and see what happens. Will let you know how it goes






The problem of zooming is going to be exagerated, so, you might want to jack up the trailing edge of the wing about an 1/8". That will help kill the zooming tendency.

You hit it right on the head when you said you would be gentle with it. Apply full throttle only when going straight up, or in a high load situation, then back off for normal flight. Running a larger prop with slightly less pitch than normal might help. If you don't have the clearance for a larger prop, try running a 3-blade prop of the appropriate size.

Any airframe can be destroyed from over stressing. Give that wing joint a break and try not to stress it too much. Otherwise, you should have a lot of fun.


Ed Cregger


_____________________________

Artisan

"Flying models since the Fifties - I'll get the hang of this yet!!!"

(in reply to manks)
       Post #: 13

RE: Overpowering a Trainer - 4/27/2008 2:03:17 AM   
manks


 

Posts: 222
Joined: 2/26/2004
From: Mississauga, ON, CANADA
Status: offline
Well it took some time, but I finally got that big .61 under the hood of the plane. I am moving the radio and servos tonight, all that will be left to do is recoverving the wing. Don' t think I will get to fly tomorrow, but next weekend for sure!

(in reply to Ed Cregger)
       Post #: 14

RE: Overpowering a Trainer - 4/27/2008 3:18:06 AM