aileron adjustment?  
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Tower Hobbies
Enter up to 4 keywords or Tower stock numbers
Logged in as Guest



Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
       

All Forums >> RC Airplanes >> Beginners >> aileron adjustment?
Page: [1] 2   next >   >>  

Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
aileron adjustment? - 4/29/2008 3:55:39 AM   
sportrider_fz6



Posts: 272
Joined: 1/12/2008
From: Salton city, CA, USA
Status: offline
I was wondering if there is any negative effects from adjusting the ailerons so that at neutral they are both slightly lower then the trailing edge of the wing. would this act as a flap or not really do anything at all. they measure 1/16 of an inch lower then the wing. they have more throw going down then up. I haven't flown it like this yet, but I was hoping this would help a little to shorten take offs and slow the landing speed a little. also which direction has the bigger effect the aileron thats down or up? I would like to make the plane more responsive.

_____________________________

Blade CX2, Blade CP Pro, Super Cub, T-28 Trojan, F-27C Stryker, Multiplex Magister
       Post #: 1

RE: aileron adjustment? - 4/29/2008 4:48:49 AM   
i live for 3D



Posts: 529
Joined: 5/8/2005
From: miami, FL, USA
Status: offline
what plane?

_____________________________

TONY

(in reply to sportrider_fz6)
       Post #: 2

RE: aileron adjustment? - 4/29/2008 5:06:36 AM   
Dorsal


 

Posts: 170
Joined: 4/21/2005
From: Tracy, CA, USA
Status: offline
Typical aileron differential is to have them travel 3 parts up to 2 parts down. Downward movement has more effect, because the airflow along the bottom of the wing is fastest. (yeah, yeah, Bernouli vs. laminar vs. boundary layer vs. whatever), downward movement has a greater effect. And as long as both are deflected the same amount, they will work like flaps.

(in reply to i live for 3D)
       Post #: 3

RE: aileron adjustment? - 4/29/2008 11:39:43 AM   
CGRetired



Posts: 4031
Joined: 9/14/2004
From: Galloway, NJ, USA
Status: offline
Can't you adjust it so that is truly neutral? There should be enough adjustment in the threads on the clevis end to adjust this out on both sides.

If you don't know how to do that, let us know what the plane is, flat bottom wing, semi, or symetrical, whatever the design is, and if you have two servos's (one on each wing half) or one (in the center operating both ailerons).

CGr.

_____________________________

Skylark 70 - OS 75 AX; Venus II - OS 1.20 AX; Tiger 120 - OS 1.20 AX; Protege - OS .75 AX. Airtronics - Spektrum. AMA 705964. Semper Paratus!

(in reply to Dorsal)
       Post #: 4

RE: aileron adjustment? - 4/29/2008 1:13:15 PM   
MinnFlyer



Posts: 19094
Joined: 4/22/2002
From: Willmar, MN, USA
Status: offline
As long as the droop is kept small it won't be a problem at all. As you said, it will act like flaps and increase lift a little. I often do this on planes when I add floats to help carry the extra weight

_____________________________

Mike B.
AMA# 42400 www.gettingairborne.com

"Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." - Groucho Marx

(in reply to CGRetired)
       Post #: 5

RE: aileron adjustment? - 4/29/2008 1:37:21 PM   
sportrider_fz6



Posts: 272
Joined: 1/12/2008
From: Salton city, CA, USA
Status: offline
thanks for the replies, it's on my Multiplex Magister. one servo operates the ailerons. I had them adjusted level with the wing and wanted to try this out. I was thinking about modifying the wings for two servo ailerons so I could program flaperons in my TX mainly to shorten the take offs, but if I can get more lift like this that would be nice.

Minnflyer, how much droop do you normally give your planes when doing this? is 1/16 enough or should I give it a little more?

_____________________________

Blade CX2, Blade CP Pro, Super Cub, T-28 Trojan, F-27C Stryker, Multiplex Magister

(in reply to MinnFlyer)
       Post #: 6

RE: aileron adjustment? - 4/29/2008 2:09:29 PM   
MinnFlyer



Posts: 19094
Joined: 4/22/2002
From: Willmar, MN, USA
Status: offline
My rule of thumb is 3 turns of the clevises - That way I know how much to turn it back when I'm done.

But 1/16" doesn't sound unreasonable - and you may want more that what I use.

But I DO recommend counting the turns - this way they will both be even and you can keep track of it if you want to un-do it.

_____________________________

Mike B.
AMA# 42400 www.gettingairborne.com

"Those are my principles. If you don't like them, I have others." - Groucho Marx

(in reply to sportrider_fz6)
       Post #: 7

RE: aileron adjustment? - 4/29/2008 2:24:57 PM   
sportrider_fz6



Posts: 272
Joined: 1/12/2008
From: Salton city, CA, USA
Status: offline
the control surfaces on the magister have the wire clamps on the control horns, so I have to shoot it by eye. when I origanally set up the plane I used a straight edge to set the surfaces for the maiden flight then just adjusted with trim from there. I'll give my new setting a try and see if it helps. thanks for the help.

_____________________________

Blade CX2, Blade CP Pro, Super Cub, T-28 Trojan, F-27C Stryker, Multiplex Magister

(in reply to MinnFlyer)
       Post #: 8

RE: aileron adjustment? - 4/29/2008 6:37:11 PM   
Montague



Posts: 4606
Joined: 4/19/2002
From: Laurel, MD,
Status: offline
As Minn said, you'll probably be fine.

However, you may run into some funny things if you aren't careful with it. I've seen more than one plane get "pitchy" in the air when the ailerons are lowered. Basically, the plane will feel like it won't hold elevator trim, or in the extreme, it will dart up or down for no apparent reason. Kinda like being tail heavy, but it doesn't feel quite the same on the sticks.

Some models will also develop a strong tendancy to baloon with the ailerons drooped like that.

The cause is a change to the pitching moment of the airfoil, and the effect depends on the airfoil and on the CG and horizontal tail surface and location.

For more acrobatic ability on planes with cambered airfoils (flat bottom and semi-semtrical, but NOT symetrical), doing the opposite, reflexing the ailerons upwards will often make the plane fly inverted better, decrease pitch changes with airspeed and sometimes help the plane track in pitch better.

So, make your changes slowly and carefully, and flight test them well at a safe altitude. Be sure to check out stall handling and what the plane does at high and low speeds and with quick speed changes. Fwiw, my preference on most non-symetrical planes is to put in a bit of aileron reflex, raising the ailerons.

Play with it and see you like with that model, messing around with such things can be a lot of fun.

quote:

Typical aileron differential is to have them travel 3 parts up to 2 parts down. Downward movement has more effect, because the airflow along the bottom of the wing is fastest. (yeah, yeah, Bernouli vs. laminar vs. boundary layer vs. whatever), downward movement has a greater effect. And as long as both are deflected the same amount, they will work like flaps.


I'm fairly sure that much of this is wrong. Airflow over the top of the wing is faster than airflow under the wing.
Also, the upwards moving aileron is much more effective. Having had aileron pushrods knocked off of many many airplanes during combat matches and continued to fly the match, you can really feel the roll rate in one direction become almost nothing, while in the other direction it's almost unaffected. And it's always the loss of the upwards-moving aileron that kills roll response. (losing an aileron is annoying, but far from fatal unless it locks hard over, then it's a bit more exciting).

The differential amount thing is ok, though I'm not sure there is a "typical" amount, as I see all kinds of values. But 3-2 isn't a bad place to start if you want to play with differential. I'd be willing to believe it might be typical in some types of aircraft in particular though.


_____________________________

Kirk Montague Adams
RCCA 560

(in reply to sportrider_fz6)
       Post #: 9

RE: aileron adjustment? - 4/29/2008 8:14:03 PM   
bruce88123


 

Posts: 10244
Joined: 11/26/2004
From: Memphis, TN, USA
Status: offline
The best thing about more up than down (differential) is that it reduces the "adverse yaw" effect. This can be done with a single servo too.

_____________________________

3-D is for Monster Movies

(in reply to Montague)
       Post #: 10

RE: aileron adjustment? - 4/29/2008 9:15:32 PM   
Rodney



Posts: 4617
Joined: 12/8/2001
From: FL
Status: offline
I have found that the model will usually respond much better if both ailerons are slightly up (not down), especially if the airfoil is flat bottom or Clark Y type. You may find it quite interesting to experiment a bit with aileron position. I'll bet you find the plane flys better with both ailerons slightly up.

(in reply to bruce88123)
       Post #: 11

RE: aileron adjustment? - 4/30/2008 2:12:51 AM   
sportrider_fz6



Posts: 272
Joined: 1/12/2008
From: Salton city, CA, USA
Status: offline
unfortunately it's way to windy to fly today, I guess I'll have to wait for a calm day so I can play with the adjustments and see how they effect the plane. I guess it will come down to which I want more agility or shorter take offs.

_____________________________

Blade CX2, Blade CP Pro, Super Cub, T-28 Trojan, F-27C Stryker, Multiplex Magister

(in reply to Rodney)
       Post #: 12

RE: aileron adjustment? - 4/30/2008 1:08:24 PM   
spiral_72



Posts: 443
Joined: 3/7/2007
From: Chesnee, SC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Montague

............I'm fairly sure that much of this is wrong. Airflow over the top of the wing is faster than airflow under the wing.
Also, the upwards moving aileron is much more effective. ...........


I agree: In my experience so far, up aileron effects the model quite a bit more than down aileron.

_____________________________

Wasn't that cool? I meant to do it.

(in reply to Montague)
       Post #: 13

RE: aileron adjustment? - 4/30/2008 10:14:52 PM   
Hossfly



Posts: 3643
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: New Caney, TX, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sportrider_fz6

thanks for the replies, it's on my Multiplex Magister. one servo operates the ailerons. I had them adjusted level with the wing and wanted to try this out. I was thinking about modifying the wings for two servo ailerons so I could program flaperons in my TX mainly to shorten the take offs, but if I can get more lift like this that would be nice.

Minnflyer, how much droop do you normally give your planes when doing this? is 1/16 enough or should I give it a little more?


I am not familiar with your specific model and therefore I have no clue as to how your ailerons are configured, i.e. strip, barn-door or what. If they are conventional barn-door ailerons on the outside of the wing wiith flaps/flap area inside you are asking for some "Experiences" in your pursuits.

Listen to Rodney above. He has broken the code.

Full length flaperons or outside ailerons / flaprons can get you into a world of hurt, even if you are a well experienced flier. They attract tip-stalls like flowers attract bees. I don't even try to keep the inexperienced "warbird" drivers, (second airplane) that snap that ARF warbird even though aerodynamically it is nothing but a pure sport (Kaos) model because they will not seek or listen to common advice. Just last year, a fair pilot had a Corsair, .90 or so at the field. He had been trying for several weeks to get decent flights and it was showing considerable repairs. While expressing all his troubles, I suggested the up-aileron using a bunch, about 1/8" at the TE of the ailerons. Then he had a trainer. After some readjustments he wound up at about 1/16", and he was flying that machine like a true sport aerobatic model. Guess he still does. He kept telling me, "I just don't believe that could make such a difference."
Flaperons on the outboard ailerons Not in my fleet.

Of course, you do as you please.

edited to add "...or outside ailerons / flaprons.."

< Message edited by Hossfly -- 4/30/2008 10:17:20 PM >


_____________________________

Horrace Cain.
AMA Life L-93, Leader and CD for 45 years

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquence; it is force! Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." George Washington

(in reply to sportrider_fz6)
       Post #: 14

RE: aileron adjustment? - 5/1/2008 4:51:01 AM   
sportrider_fz6



Posts: 272
Joined: 1/12/2008
From: Salton city, CA, USA
Status: offline
after reading everything posted, I'm going to change the ailerons to 1/16 up instead of down before I fly it. they are on the outside edge of the wing. I don't want to cause tip stall. thanks for the lesson! there is so much to learn about this hobby. I think aside from the flying part, the maintenance and repair (hopefully more maintenance!!!) as well as learning everything are what make this hobby so addicting. even tho you guys already know, I let you know how my next flight with the magister goes with the aileron slightly up. I'm hoping for good things!!!

thanks again for the help, it's amazing how much money you can save by listening to the voices of experience [)]


< Message edited by sportrider_fz6 -- 5/1/2008 4:52:31 AM >


_____________________________

Blade CX2, Blade CP Pro, Super Cub, T-28 Trojan, F-27C Stryker, Multiplex Magister

(in reply to Hossfly)
       Post #: 15

RE: aileron adjustment? - 5/1/2008 6:58:13 AM   
gaRCfield


 

Posts: 675
Joined: 5/20/2008
From: Burlington, VT, USA
Status: offline
Just curious, but the original post was about decreasing take-off roll and decreasing landing speed. Won't having the ailerons raised a bit increase take-off and landing speed?

_____________________________

...because flaps are cool.

(in reply to sportrider_fz6)