RE: Death of a WillHobby FW 190  
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RE: Death of a WillHobby FW 190 - 5/6/2008 4:00:29 PM   
kahloq



Posts: 1556
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: Fort Collins, CO, USA
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Not so sure on the reveresed aileron thing KC. I admit I had that happen on my H9 Hellcat. On mine, it took off fine and I also had to level it out with elevator cuz it took off at a rather steep angle. After it was leveled off...it started banking to the left and I tried to correct with right aileron. ONLY thing it did was continue banking left, just at a much faster rate since I was unducing it more so due to the reversed ailerons. Thats not what happened in your case.
I dont see how its possible at all for it to be reversed ailerons on your plane and have it snap BACK to the right during a left roll over and spin in that way when the intial bank was left and it didnt continue left unless you did push the stick left during the spin. Im sorry, but its highly unlikely it was reversed aileron....still possible though. Many ppl, even experienced pilots, are quick to judge something like this as reversed ailerons cuz it kinda looks like it at initial glance, but when watching the video a few times, i highly doubt thats what the problem was. Everyone means well in this thread and they are all just trying to help of course.

I would have to agree that the CG may have been tail heavy. In this case, the plane can do a lot of funky things when loss of pilot control happens. Your plane really looked like it was struggling to stay on a balanced attitude. My guess is the manual CG wasnt so good. Also, even if it were just on the cuff of being tail heavy, too much aileron input WILL induce a spin and snap. Also, on a tail heavy plane, the elevator is super sensitive and just the elevator alone can induce a snap roll, stall, etc.

Now, the last thing it could be was a voltage problem on the battery to the RX. If the rx sees a voltage loss and it goes under 4volts, the plane can go into lock out and cause something like this as the servos will no longer respond. But I doubt this is the case.

Edit note:
I did go back and watch the youtube videos G-pete linked to and yes those were reveresed silerons and the planes in question did reverese the roll during the loss of control, but it was not quick like jerking over.....on those videos it appears the pilot tried opposite aileron to correct as the timing was such that it was about right for an aileron servo travel going from one deflection to the other. On KC's plane, the sudden reversal to the right was instant thus indicating a CG problem in my opinion.


< Message edited by kahloq -- 5/6/2008 4:08:51 PM >

(in reply to rc2007)
       Post #: 26

RE: Death of a WillHobby FW 190 - 5/6/2008 8:12:32 PM   
KentuckyColonel



Posts: 302
Joined: 4/20/2007
From: Mission Viejo, CA, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kahloq

Not so sure on the reveresed aileron thing KC. I admit I had that happen on my H9 Hellcat. On mine, it took off fine and I also had to level it out with elevator cuz it took off at a rather steep angle. After it was leveled off...it started banking to the left and I tried to correct with right aileron. ONLY thing it did was continue banking left, just at a much faster rate since I was unducing it more so due to the reversed ailerons. Thats not what happened in your case.
I dont see how its possible at all for it to be reversed ailerons on your plane and have it snap BACK to the right during a left roll over and spin in that way when the intial bank was left and it didnt continue left unless you did push the stick left during the spin. Im sorry, but its highly unlikely it was reversed aileron....still possible though. Many ppl, even experienced pilots, are quick to judge something like this as reversed ailerons cuz it kinda looks like it at initial glance, but when watching the video a few times, i highly doubt thats what the problem was. Everyone means well in this thread and they are all just trying to help of course.

I would have to agree that the CG may have been tail heavy. In this case, the plane can do a lot of funky things when loss of pilot control happens. Your plane really looked like it was struggling to stay on a balanced attitude. My guess is the manual CG wasnt so good. Also, even if it were just on the cuff of being tail heavy, too much aileron input WILL induce a spin and snap. Also, on a tail heavy plane, the elevator is super sensitive and just the elevator alone can induce a snap roll, stall, etc.

Now, the last thing it could be was a voltage problem on the battery to the RX. If the rx sees a voltage loss and it goes under 4volts, the plane can go into lock out and cause something like this as the servos will no longer respond. But I doubt this is the case.

Edit note:
I did go back and watch the youtube videos G-pete linked to and yes those were reveresed silerons and the planes in question did reverese the roll during the loss of control, but it was not quick like jerking over.....on those videos it appears the pilot tried opposite aileron to correct as the timing was such that it was about right for an aileron servo travel going from one deflection to the other. On KC's plane, the sudden reversal to the right was instant thus indicating a CG problem in my opinion.



Kahlog,

I can pretty well assure everyone it was not reversed ailerons. Not unless something happened to reverse them between my pre-flight (yes, I did do one, it was not on the video, but it was done) and take off! CG was, I admit, on the back end of the recommended CG, but was in the range the manual suggested. I had added a pound of lead to the nose, and just didn't want to add more weight to the plane, so when it fell within range, I didn't add more. I would go along with it being tail heavy before I would agree to reversed ailerons. Next time, I'll go with the added poundage in order to get to the extreme front of the recommended CG. Good thing is, it was just a model, not my first crash and certainly won't have been my last. My thing is to learn from my mistakes and make sure I don't do it again. I just got the Hi-res DVD of the flight from my friend and will take a look at it to see if I can see the strange goings on with the left aileron he reported seeing.

(in reply to kahloq)
       Post #: 27

RE: Death of a WillHobby FW 190 - 5/6/2008 10:17:13 PM   
orvel



Posts: 250
Joined: 6/7/2002
From: Allentown, PA, USA
Status: offline
Colonel, just saw your video and sorry about your loss. The way it tookoff however, it definetly looked like it was tailheavy. I'm surprised it went as high as it did, in regards to the little things that people either don't tell you or you learn through the "school of hardnocks", a few years ago I lost a beautiful giant scale Top Flite P51 (my first giant scale project) which I had over two grand in to a $7 switch harness. I went with the stock switch that came with my radio and put it in a 28lb warbird. Needless to say, after a few flights the vibration from the Quadra 52 upfront got the best of it and it went dead on me. Needless to say, now my Yellow P-47 (see my gallery) not only has a super heavy duty switch but a battery back up system to boot also. Crashing is no fun, but learning something from it is definetly a positive.

(in reply to KentuckyColonel)
       Post #: 28

RE: Death of a WillHobby FW 190 - 5/6/2008 10:57:19 PM   
vertical grimmace


 

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Joined: 3/13/2004
From: ft collins , CO, USA
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Knowing where the CG should be is very easy with a wing that has no SWEEP. It should be right on or forward of the thickest part of the wing. I know there are exceptions but with this plane, if you balanced on or ahead of the thickest part of the airfoil, you would have been OK there.
The aft CG is most likely what happened. That is why it nosed up and also why you had it snap out the way it did. When an airplane is stalled like that that desperate sense of no control exists because you do not have control.
Just remember to get the CG good, Go to full throttle, and try to keep the control inputs smooth.

(in reply to orvel)
       Post #: 29

RE: Death of a WillHobby FW 190 - 5/6/2008 11:51:58 PM   
kahloq



Posts: 1556
Joined: 1/1/2006
From: Fort Collins, CO, USA
Status: offline
alot of the manuals for those cheap chinese planes are not accurate for CG. Im not sure if you did or not, but I always look through any threads about the particular plane Im building and look for CG info. The CMP P-40 50 size is a great exampel fo this. A couple of planes Ive had, the CG in the manual would have caused a tail heavy situation and i was glad I got the info off the thread. One example is the FSK ME-109G. FSK isnt chinese made....made in Europe....but the CG stated is a little too far aft for normal flying.
If everyone goes with teh manual CG, always put it at the forward range first.

(in reply to vertical grimmace)
       Post #: 30

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