RE: Flame Out Titan SE

RE: Flame Out Titan SE
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RE: Flame Out Titan SE - 5/12/2008 2:11:07 AM

KC36330

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From: Enterprise, AL, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaJ. Woody

What would you consider high amperage? I am running two 6V packs to the RX that can each deliver 40 amps. I have a couple servos that buzz a bit but when I put them on my Hanger 9 meter it only shows very little current draw while buzzing.

buzzing is normal on coreless servos, it's them trying to constantly find center.

(in reply to MaJ. Woody)

Post #: 26

RE: Flame Out Titan SE - 5/12/2008 2:42:19 AM

ravill

Posts: 1958
Joined: 1/24/2003
From: Redwood, CA, USA
Status: offline

Dom,

I was plauged with powerfails in my kingcat with a p120 non-se. The jetcat folks thought for sure it was an ESD problem. I did not tell them I was running NiMH on both my reciever and ECU packs (parallel with the smoke pump), as I didn't think this was a problem.

They had me hammer a stake in the ground and clip a wire to that stake and clip the other side to the brass fitting on the UAT during fill up. I also s/w a few people who had some similar experiences with using NiMH in their jets. As soon as I replaced the NiMH's with NiCD's I stopped having this problem, since I have stopped staking in the ground.

Try a battery other than NiMH's in your system. I don't understand it either, because the car guys pull WAY more amps outta NiMH's than we EVER do in our jets. Some folks will say that even at very moderate loads (7-10 amps) the NiMH's can just drop enough voltage.

Oh, and that blank screen with the green, and, or red light blinking, is the ECU "rebooting" after some sort of electrical disturbance. The only way to get any type of reading on the GSU is to turn the system back off and on again. Thus loosing your previous run info that could potentially show that "power spike".

This was explained to me to be likely, ESD....

Raf

PS: Just goes to remind you, that these toys are so UN-forgiving....

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Post #: 27

RE: Flame Out Titan SE - 5/12/2008 5:02:02 AM

Wayne22

Posts: 4336
Joined: 4/10/2002
From: Edmonton, AB, CANADA
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Some very interesting information coming out of this thread!!!

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Post #: 28

RE: Flame Out Titan SE - 5/12/2008 2:10:13 PM

Kevin_W

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Joined: 3/5/2002
From: Carrollton, TX, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaJ. Woody

What would you consider high amperage? I am running two 6V packs to the RX that can each deliver 40 amps. I have a couple servos that buzz a bit but when I put them on my Hanger 9 meter it only shows very little current draw while buzzing.

Your batteries may indeed be able to deliver 40 amps, but if your switch has corroded contacts or one of the battery connectors is bad the amperage that your receiver (and/or ECU) sees will be much lower.
Just because the power source is more than adequate does not guarantee that it is getting to the device that needs it.

Have you checked the amperage draw from those servos under load? Or at full stall?

Are you running a voltage regulator? Can the regulator handle high amperage? If not what does the regulator do when the amperage draw exceeds it's rated capacity?

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Texas Jetcat rep

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Post #: 29

RE: Flame Out Titan SE - 5/12/2008 2:39:43 PM

MaJ. Woody

Posts: 1258
Joined: 4/4/2003
From: Rochester, NY, USA
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The setup is two No BS 1950 mah Nimh packs. Each cell has only 4 ohms impedence so the packs can deliver 40 amps each. The switches are two Electrodynamics Heavy Duty Switches plugged directly into the receiver. This is the setup I use in all my jets and never have had a problem in hundreds of flights. All equipment is bran new for this jet and the batteries have been cycled. I did not test the draw of very servo in this setup but can. I can also plug my Hanger 9 Meter in between the battery and receiver to see the total sytem draw. I will do this just to put the issue to rest but don't think this is my problem.
Thanks for the ideas. Keep them coming!!

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Dom
Team FeiBao

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Post #: 30

RE: Flame Out Titan SE - 5/12/2008 2:51:48 PM

grbaker

Posts: 2439
Joined: 12/12/2001
From: La Porte (near Houston), TX, USA
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quote:

I can also plug my Hanger 9 Meter in between the battery and receiver to see the total sytem draw.

Very good idea!

While you are doing this, lightly push on some of the surfaces (flaps, ailerons, etc.) to simulate flight loads. I found a linkage geometry problem this way. There was very little load on the servo with the surface deflected until I pushed on the flap a little bit.

If I remember right, there was someone on that posted on RCU, that found a big amp draw from a retract servo due to a binding retract valve spool.

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Gary Baker

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Post #: 31

RE: Flame Out Titan SE - 5/12/2008 3:05:59 PM

Jack Diaz

Posts: 55
Joined: 11/18/2003
From: Caracas, VENEZUELA
Status: offline

I used to have a lot of "power failure" engine shut downs.
ALL of them were due to poor connection between the batt and the regulator or between the regulator and the receiver.
You will not find it until you try to twist or move the connectors. I also found that if you use the yellow connector securing clip, the problem gets worse.
My solution was: to slightly deform (with a tiny hammer) the female connector receptacle (take it out of the plastic piece first ... LOL); and to use masking tape around all the connections (ugly, but works).
Sometimes the plastic to plastic connector fit feels secure, but the metal to metal inside is not.

I have not had any failure since (still using same batts, regulators, UCUs, etc). Also, I am using redundancy in the power system now.

I was using 72 Mh at the time, so momentary current interruptions did not affect the radio link.
With 2.4 I guess the problem would have been a lot worse than just engine shut down.

Hope this helps
jack

(in reply to MaJ. Woody)

Post #: 32

RE: Flame Out Titan SE - 5/12/2008 3:23:33 PM

Kevin_W

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Joined: 3/5/2002
From: Carrollton, TX, USA
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MaJ. Woody,

I am not trying lay blame here. I'm actually trying to help you solve this problem.

If you limit the scope of your testing just because some (or all) component is "brand new" or rated for more than enough capacity to do the job you may not find the problem.
Even brand new equipment can be faulty.

Putting the amp meter in between the battery and the rest of the system is an excellent idea. Make sure you simulate flight loads on all the servos (just because a control surface is centered during level flight does not mean that there is no load on it). Also wiggle wires around and tap on the switches at the same time.
I would do this with the engine off first, then again with it running.
You might also want to put a in between the ECU and the receiver so you can see what voltage (and amperage) the ECU is actually seeing.

If you can't find anything then send your engine and ECU into Bob Wilcox and ask him to go over it with a fine toothed comb.

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Kevin Whitlow
Texas Jetcat rep

(in reply to MaJ. Woody)

Post #: 33

RE: Flame Out Titan SE - 5/12/2008 4:08:21 PM

MaJ. Woody

Posts: 1258
Joined: 4/4/2003
From: Rochester, NY, USA
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Hi Kevin.
I did not mean it that way. I mean I want to get to the bottom of it. If testing each servo is going to rule out the cause (or verify it) then I want to get it over with.

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Dom
Team FeiBao

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Post #: 34

RE: Flame Out Titan SE - 5/12/2008 4:59:46 PM

Vincent

Posts: 2648
Joined: 12/7/2001
From: Phoenix, AZ, USA
Status: offline

Dom,
You said in the first post it was your 6th flight when you had the flameout. Did you top off the charge in between flights or was that 6 flights on that nimih 3800 pack?? BTW are you running kero start??
V..

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Post #: 35

RE: Flame Out Titan SE - 5/12/2008 7:56:46 PM

MaJ. Woody

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Joined: 4/4/2003
From: Rochester, NY, USA
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Hi.
That was the aircrafts 6th total flight but only the second flight on that day from a fully charged pack. No Kero start.

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Dom
Team FeiBao

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Post #: 36

RE: Flame Out Titan SE - 5/13/2008 12:26:11 AM

MaJ. Woody

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Joined: 4/4/2003
From: Rochester, NY, USA
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Ok.
I spoke with Bob Wilcox today and he said that my battery system sounded fine and he did not think it was the problem. He feels it may have been a static electricity issue. I opened the ECU and checked all the solder joints and they looked good.

A few tips from Bob:

1. don't let fuel lines touch any electrical cables

2. Run the BVM fuel additive for static control

3. Run the aux channel cable from the ECU to any open port in the Receiver

I am using single channel throttle on my jets so I ran the aux cable as Bob suggested.

Running my servo leads from the rear of the plane to the front I have several instances where my leads touch either a fuel tank or fuel lines (both tygon and the 4mm and 6mm plastic stuff). I checked all my other jets and at some point in all of my jets electrical wires contact fuel tanks or lines. I have never had a problem with those jets.

I tested my system draw with my Hanger 9 meter and here are the results:

System on all surfaces idle .23 amps
moving elevator and ailerons together .88 amps
everything moving with the flaps full down 2.1 amps
Everything moving no flap down 1.8 amps
Nosewheel only full lock left or right 1.35 amps

So my questions are:

1. How do those numbers compare to your planes? My friends F-22 is posting double those figures in all aspects.

2. What about the fuel lines/tanks touching the electrical lines?

Thanks for the input!!

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Dom
Team FeiBao

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Post #: 37

RE: Flame Out Titan SE - 5/13/2008 12:32:28 AM

MaJ. Woody

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Joined: 4/4/2003
From: Rochester, NY, USA
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Here is some examples of my fuel lines/wires........

Attachments

Click for fullsize	Click for fullsize	Click for fullsize	Click for fullsize
Click for fullsize

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Dom
Team FeiBao

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Post #: 38

RE: Flame Out Titan SE - 5/13/2008 12:44:39 AM

MaJ. Woody

Posts: 1258
Joined: 4/4/2003
From: Rochester, NY, USA
Status: offline

By the way.......GSU indicates zero failsafes after flying.

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Dom
Team FeiBao

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